Will there Be a Professional DX Body From Nikon?

heartyfisher

@brownie said : So the question remains - what will be the "optimal" size for a sensor - I don't think anyone can know right now.

You are right.. I suspect the answer will have a large ergonomic component just like SDcards seem to have won over all the other cards due to its size and shape. obviously Fujifilm has set their path on DX sized sensors and Cameras and lenses that are smaller and the 4/3 crowd on even smaller. I guess its the answer to the question to all humans of what the size of a device that takes "excellent" photos and video should be?

I think the answer may be the P&S camera that you can put in your pocket. of course you can stick a FF sensor in those. but for optimal lense + body I think maybe the m43 or dx sensor may be the ultimate optimal size. we now have some very seriously good DX sensor cameras in the mirrorless offerings and its only going to get better. the question is what is an ergonomically acceptable interchangeable lense size to carry around with say F1.8. or F2.0 apertures.

WestEndBoy

Bizarre as it sounds, FX will be just slightly more than DX. When prices come down, manufacturing costs will be a minority cost and the majority costs will be the same for DX and FX.

In the end, a few formats will be left standing. One will be the "cell phone" format. Two will be micro 4/3 as there is already a large install base. Three will be the full frame Canon and Nikon systems. DX will disappear as it is not a "mount format", but a sensor format designed to support the F-Mount. Four will be a "real" medium format system, not the poor excuse "FX plus 20%" Pentax offering which is really Pentax's "stay in the Canikon game" play.

One will be for "snapshot" shooters.

Two will be for people that want better quality, but are not real enthusiasts. The small size will be the value proposition.

Three are for enthusiasts that want the largest size that they can carry all day.

Four will be for shooters that don't care about size, weight and cost. They will want superior image quality at all costs.

I think I just convinced myself that DX does not have a future. CX does. Nikon already has a CX mount, but not a DX mount. Nikon seems to be betting on this.

I see myself in the "one", "three" and "four" space.

sevencrossing

Why not MF
Because of MF ergonomics, they are a bit too big and heavy for many applications
This is why the miniature camera, The Leica and Nikon F, took over from Rolli and Hasselblad

MF lenses are also big and expensive

The ergonomics of the D300 was virtually identical to the D700
Dx has no intrinsic ergonomic advantage

Many D300 owners bought the Holy Trinity. The cost of which is the same for DX and FX

When it comes to price. It is very important to understand; Component are only one factor affecting retail price

other factors include

Manufacturing costs
Nikon's mark up
re sellers mark up
Distribution
Marketing
R&D
Product liability insurance

The ergonomics of a mirror less camera are different to a DSLR and may be Nikon will make a pro DX mirror less camera . but my money is on a rival for the full frame A7

Photobug

I'll go back to the controls - buttons, menu options etc. Nikon has not listened to others, and the D7100 is not a D300 replacement - it just isn't. I'm looking forward to holding a D750, but it appears to be cut from the same cloth as the D7100 and will suffer from the same issues. I realize that most don't utilize most features on a camera, or even know they exist, but for the class of shooters the always pick up this model of body, usually do.

I really disagree with that observation/statement that the D750 is cut from the same cloth as the D7100. The D750 is bigger than the D7100 and has a bigger buffer, has better AF system, and improved ergonomics and many other improvements to list here. This is based upon spending 45 minutes holding and shooting the D750 over two visits to the local dealer.

However with that said I totally agree with you that the D750 is NOT a replacement to the D300/D300S. As of now there is no replacement but there are DX options liked the D7100 and FX options like the D610, D750, D810, and D4S. Nikon is indirectly saying there is no replacement but there are options so pick one of our DSLR's that meets your needs.

Ironheart

Let's take the DX/FX stuff over here:
http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/2684/is-dx-superior-to-fx/
And check out the photo of a D400 on the main blog!
http://nikonrumors.com/2014/10/17/nikon-d400-spotted-on-facebook-real-or-fake.aspx/
Its here baby!! Ha Ha it's on facebook so it must be true!!!

Ironheart

I know, I was just trying to stir the pot... Don't burst my D400 bubble (

Photobug

+1 PitchBlack - it reeks D200 with a PS top. As soon as I saw the C/S/M button I knew it was a fake.
No D400 or D9300 Ironheart. Sorry for breaking your bubble.

Back on subject - I just don't see that Pro DX body in the future.

spraynpray

spraynpray: Ok, what is the horizontal axis of the bathtub curve for electronics measured in? shutter actuations or years? The camera repairmen I have talked to have replaced shutters in D3 bodies at around 250,000 to 350,000 actuations and then again after another 250,000 to 350,000 actuations. So they were telling me a the electronics in a D3 will last through at least two or three shutters in their experience. I notice Nikon rates shutter longevity but not electronics longevity.

Life time equals use. Use must equal shutter and electronics actuations. Nobody can tell exactly what any failure will be, and it doesn't matter what it is, failure is failure.

I was out shooting my D7000 when I noticed I was unable to move the focus point. That was an electronics failure - not a show stopper, but a failure none the less. All other uses of the multi-selector worked, but the focus point stated centred. A rare failure at about 8000 shutter actuations.

Bokeh_Hunter

I'll go back to the controls - buttons, menu options etc. Nikon has not listened to others, and the D7100 is not a D300 replacement - it just isn't. I'm looking forward to holding a D750, but it appears to be cut from the same cloth as the D7100 and will suffer from the same issues. I realize that most don't utilize most features on a camera, or even know they exist, but for the class of shooters the always pick up this model of body, usually do.

I really disagree with that observation/statement that the D750 is cut from the same cloth as the D7100. The D750 is bigger than the D7100 and has a bigger buffer, has better AF system, and improved ergonomics and many other improvements to list here. This is based upon spending 45 minutes holding and shooting the D750 over two visits to the local dealer.

Those are just the natural basic upgrades that happens with bodies (even if it is a new FX body.) As with the D7100, the controls, menu items, etc. enable users to fully utilize those features. It reminds me of all the Ford Mustangs that get released. The "souped up" cobras, shelbys, etc. have huge numbers on the engines with 500, 600, 800 horsepower, but when on the track they are marginally better than the top of the line Stang coming from the factory. Something is missing. I'm not saying they are bad cameras, at all, but I really get tired of people wanting to believe they are the pro level. Every brand knocks something off the "top" system with each model downward in the lineup. Sometimes it isn't noticed or a mid-level performs a bit better, but that is just because of the release schedule of different bodies.

spraynpray: Ok, what is the horizontal axis of the bathtub curve for electronics measured in? shutter actuations or years? The camera repairmen I have talked to have replaced shutters in D3 bodies at around 250,000 to 350,000 actuations and then again after another 250,000 to 350,000 actuations. So they were telling me a the electronics in a D3 will last through at least two or three shutters in their experience. I notice Nikon rates shutter longevity but not electronics longevity.

Life time equals use. Use must equal shutter and electronics actuations. Nobody can tell exactly what any failure will be, and it doesn't matter what it is, failure is failure.

I was out shooting my D7000 when I noticed I was unable to move the focus point. That was an electronics failure - not a show stopper, but a failure none the less. All other uses of the multi-selector worked, but the focus point stated centred. A rare failure at about 8000 shutter actuations.

I like the points you are both saying but are kind of speaking past each other. Comparisons suggestions of how good all bodies are based on the repairs of the Top of the line D3/4s. Those are built 100x better than any other body after all there is a real reason they are $6,000. Each level down the lineup, the less robust every part is.

The pro DX line had the many of the robust pro parts skimping usually just on the pentaprism, and a few minor parts in a smaller body. I have seen friends D7000/D90 camera get reduced to the trash just due to the shutter release button break, screens breaking, joystick pads not working, etc. Meanwhile my D300 has close to 200,000 clicks on it and hasn't skipped a beat. Buttons are just as responsive as when it was new.

Sports

Nikon is indirectly saying there is no replacement but there are options so pick one of our DSLR's

Suppose they'd say this DIRECTLY - then maybe I would buy something. As it is, I just keep using my D300, still waiting for the successor.

... pick one of our DSLR's that meets your needs ...

They simply don't have those claimed options. No matter what you pay, you can't get a body that betters the D300 on all parameters. (Try (a) "DX or bigger", (b) "same pixel density or better", (c) "same fps or better" - no, it's not there. Oh, btw, all other brands do offer this.)
I'm not saying anything bad about other Nikon bodies. The D810 and D750 are probably the best two bodies in the world, but there's a reason even quite a few D8xx owners also desire a D400 kind of thing.

snakebunk

...there's a reason even quite a few D8xx owners also desire a D400 kind of thing.

The reason is pro body, high fps and high pixel density (something like 10 fps and 24 mp in dx). You cannot get that with the current Nikon lineup. The D810 is not really close; it is a great camera and it can serve as a replacement for many D300s owners but it is not a D300s replacement.

I used my D300s yesterday and it feals great. Super build quality and fast compared to my D800. It is still a really good camera, just a little bit outdated.

I can live without a D400 and I don't think Nikon will make one, but I sometimes feel a need to state that there is no replacement.

heartyfisher

You say that FX will beat out DX due to it being rooted in the Fmount. However, the fact is that the current mounts will be gone in a few years when the Mirrorless systems from Nikon arrives.. Its a whole new ball game.. ... the most of the "other player" have gone with DX and M43. eg : Fuji and now espcially Samsung.

sevencrossing

when the Mirrorless systems from Nikon arrives.. Its a whole new ball game.

Nikon s Mirrorless systems come out years ago. It is called Nikon 1 and was indeed, a whole new ball game. Very few professionals seemed interested in playing
This thread is about Professional cameras
Most Nikon Professionals have several thousands $$$$$ invested in F mount glass
The advantage new Nikon mirrors less system are going to have to be spectacular, to make these guys sell all there full frame F mount glass and bulletproof D3s and 4s

heartyfisher

when the Mirrorless systems from Nikon arrives.. Its a whole new ball game.

Nikon s Mirrorless systems come out years ago. It is called Nikon 1 and was indeed, a whole new ball game. Very few professionals seemed interested in playing
This thread is about Professional cameras
Most Nikon Professionals have several thousands $$$$$ invested in F mount glass
The advantage new Nikon mirrors less system are going to have to be spectacular, to make these guys sell all there full frame F mount glass and bulletproof D3s and 4s

Surely you are not suggesting that Nikon will only have the Nikon1 mirrorless system. I think the majority here are expecting a new Nikon FX or DX mirrorless syatem to be introduced soon that will replace the current FX/DX system. even the Nikon1 has an adapter to use all Nikon F mount lenses so when Nikon comes out with their mirrorless system it is almost certain that it will also have an adapter to use all the Nikon glass.

sevencrossing

I think there is a possibility of a new mirrorless Nikon
My gut feeling is, the first one will be full frame and an F mount
I think it may be 2 years away, it might be the D5
I concede many people would like a mirror less Nikon
Lets be honest. the current range of 8 Nikon DSLRs covers most people needs and budget
Personally I would never buy a system that needed adapters , they are just reduce precision and reliability

Photobug

@Sports - you said:
They simply don't have those claimed options. No matter what you pay, you can't get a body that betters the D300 on all parameters. (Try (a) "DX or bigger", (b) "same pixel density or better", (c) "same fps or better" - no, it's not there. Oh, btw, all other brands do offer this.)
I'm not saying anything bad about other Nikon bodies. The D810 and D750 are probably the best two bodies in the world, but there's a reason even quite a few D8xx owners also desire a D400 kind of thing.
I agree there is really no direct replacement...think that is what you are saying....and I am saying there won't be one and Nikon basically assumes when the owner of the D300S/D300 is ready for a new DSLR they will pick something that comes close to what they want. There is no perfect replacement. The D300 I shot for 6 tears was fantastic but I chose to take advantage of some of the newer technology and I made compromise decisions on what was best for "ME". If you are not willing to make comprises you should continue to shoot your D300/D300S.

@stakebunck said:
I used my D300s yesterday and it feals great. Super build quality and fast compared to my D800. It is still a really good camera, just a little bit outdated.

I can live without a D400 and I don't think Nikon will make one, but I sometimes feel a need to state that there is no replacement.

+1 the D300 was an excellent camera and still is.
+1 I also can live without a D400/D9300.
+1 agree Nikon will not make a replacement and most important there will not be one.

Is there a demand for a Pro built DX. Sure. Is the volume large enough to support making one...don't know but I doubt it because of the number of D300 owners that have moved on.

That is how I see it and I find it interesting that you and others now realize that you have moved on and realize that your new DSLR does what you need it to do. For those that are still shooting the D300 If your not careful and don't make some compromises the world will move on and leave you in the dust.

heartyfisher

Another friend has gone and got the Fuji X T1.. I had a play with it.. its good fun. Nice replacement for the Pro DX that Nikon is not providing...

The viewfinder is quite nice.. better than my Nikon1. No issue with lag that I noticed. The Focus peaking is cool. The F1.2 lense is awesome ! ( Fujinon XF56mmF1.2 ) and of course the fuji colours are exquisite! He is the 4th person I know that has gone to the Fujifilm X mounts. 2 of whom have gone "all in" ! one from nikon the other from canon. There is another friend that has gone to Olympus M43. from Nikon.. many are contemplating the decision too .. If nikon doesnt do anything more will be moving over.

PB_PM

I still don't get the excitement to move to mirrorless cameras. There are some nice things about them, if weight is the primary consideration, but the EVF and auto focus speed still need to improve before they can be useful for anything other than still subjects.

WestEndBoy

Agreed on Mirrorless. However, Fuji deserves to be commended for the system that they are developing.

PB_PM

Indeed, to date Fuji has the most attractive mirrorless system, based on lenses alone.

Bokeh_Hunter

Another friend has gone and got the Fuji X T1.. I had a play with it.. its good fun. Nice replacement for the Pro DX that Nikon is not providing...

The viewfinder is quite nice.. better than my Nikon1. No issue with lag that I noticed. The Focus peaking is cool. The F1.2 lense is awesome ! ( Fujinon XF56mmF1.2 ) and of course the fuji colours are exquisite! He is the 4th person I know that has gone to the Fujifilm X mounts. 2 of whom have gone "all in" ! one from nikon the other from canon. There is another friend that has gone to Olympus M43. from Nikon.. many are contemplating the decision too .. If nikon doesnt do anything more will be moving over.

The Fuji X-T1 is a really nice system, and really what Nikon should have released (even if with new mounts.) They are releasing pro level lenses that are actually what everyone wants. I'm tempted every day to pick one of these up. The OMD EM1 is equally as nice and to be honest, one generation more, it could easily take over the amature sports/wildlife market with the extra reach. It just needs to get to 14bit color and pick the focusing up just a bit, and the ISOs need to be really clean at 800 and they have it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, if Nikon released a 16mp-18mp Pro DX that gets close to the D4 in fps, buffer, and the D800 in noise, they would sell so many it wouldn't even be funny. I'll shoot some sports and wildlife every once in a while and I could use a DX body as back up easily so having DX over a FX 2nd body isn't bad. My 70-200 2.8 becomes a 105 - 300 2.8. My old Tokina 300mm 2.8 becomes a 450mm 2.8. That is why people want a pro DX! And that is why Nikon doesn't want to sell one - it's the glass. A new 300mm f/2.8 is $5,800. For the 4-5 times I go out and would like that length, I would not buy one - it's just not worth it. But a great pro DX + 70-200mm F2.8 = $4,200ish. That is what Nikon is looking at.

donaldejose

Interesting comment today from Thom Hogan when discussing when the shift to mirrorless will occur:

"So when does this [mirrorless] future arrive? My sources in Japan tell me that both Canon and Nikon have been targeting early 2015, though they also admit that there are hurdles both need to still solve, so that date may slip."

So just maybe Nikon's D400 will be mirrorless? How would a mirrorless design for a D400 make the needed D400 stats easier to achieve?

Sports

If it's true that Nikon will bring mirrorless DX that soon, it could explain why all new releases have been FX for quite a while.
But I'm not quite ready to believe this.
The theory doesn't explain why there's a Canon 7DII but no "D400".

Oh, well. For this to make real sense as "the explanation for the missing D400", Nikon should have a mirrorless pro version ready as one of the very first models of the new line.
And they better have solved all issues perfectly, so that it's actually better than what a DSLR would have been. Who would buy a "version 1" if it had serious issues and obvious shortcomings? Most potential buyers of a pro model are very well aware of how the handling, battery life, AF performance etc. should be.
Maybe, Canon knows that they won't hit the mark, so they could just as well release the classic 7DII.

scoobysmak

I have not really followed this thread very much lately but glancing at a few post, I saw a few people happy with the D750/D7100 bodies. The are nice for some but not what I am looking for, the ergonomics are what I am looking for and a better buffer than the D7100.

I see the mirror-less topic, I have not really looked into the advantages but if the auto-focus system is good enough to track objects in low light would be my main concern. I also want it to work with all my current glass without an adapter, I could live with an adapter but just something else to make setting lens correction(s) necessary. If Nikon were working on the D400 and it was mirror-less I could see the delay, I would want them to get it right the first time and not have another "D600 episode" and have to go back and put band-aids on a broken product. Otherwise I just don't see the D400 in the books or I think they would have released something by now, but I could be wrong.

Overall though I still use a D700 for most things, its still a good camera but plan to purchase a D810 and keep the D700 for a backup. I don't shoot professionally so not having the tool I want is not a big deal. This is just me though, others may need something else.

sevencrossing

Overall though I still use a D700 for most things, its still a good camera but plan to purchase a D810 and keep the D700 for a backup. .

When a bought a D800 I kept my D700 as a back up
but I should have sold it
It has been gathering dust for about 2 years
Once you get used to the D810, I doubt if you will want to use your D700
you certainly will not be hankering after a Profession Dx camera
(unless one come out that is better than the D810 and / or half the price)
one thing; if you have not already, put some money aside for upgrading your computer
the 36 mp files, like a fast processor, plenty of RAM and several TB of hard drive