NIKON...MIRROR LESS ( Groan...now by 23 rd August )

PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,499Member
edited July 24 in General Discussions
Well there we have it CP+ mirror less fail
Post edited by Pistnbroke on
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Comments

  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 309Member
    edited March 2
    The more I see the advancements made in mirrorless cameras the more I think Nikon and Canon are signing up for long term obsolescence by (mostly) ignoring the market.
    Post edited by mhedges on
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,729Member
    Much to do about nothing, don’t get your shorts in a knot it will come when it’s ready.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 309Member
    Yeah when Sony has an insurmountable lead.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,499Member
    edited March 2
    A73 selling like hot cakes are they mad, they should fall on there swords ...
    Post edited by Pistnbroke on
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,729Member
    So go buy a Sony thingy then, I’m sure it takes wonderful jpegs. :lol: It will take years for Nikon to make enough native mount lenses for the mirror less system to be worth buying, so I don’t see the big rush to get a first generation beta tester model.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,499Member
    edited March 3
    No chance buying a sony service is worse than Nikon. With 5 Nikons I don't think changing is an option but I would like to see some progress for Nikon and what they can come up with. For me the D850 is useless and the D800 was bad, Vision 360 ???? So its all in the lap of the gods.
    Post edited by Pistnbroke on
  • HankBHankB Posts: 172Member
    By something like the end of this decade, mirrorless, not DSLR, will be picking up the lion's share of new entrants into serious photo systems as well as the system switchers.

    If you look at market share trends for serious amateur to professional level interchangeable lens camera systems, Canon seems to have more time remaining than does Nikon to continue to screw around fighting the inevitable before they must introduce a serious mirrorless system to still retain its customer base advantage.

    In other words, Nikon must beat Canon to market.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,499Member
    Well I got a Olympus M5 must be 10 years old now ..perfectly good except for the 4/3 16 mp sensor ..just wants scaling up to FX ..Whats the problem ???
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 309Member
    edited March 3
    PB_PM said:

    It will take years for Nikon to make enough native mount lenses for the mirror less system to be worth buying

    That’s kind of the point. They are already far behind, and need to start bringing things to market if they want to have hope of catching up.
    HankB said:

    By something like the end of this decade, mirrorless, not DSLR, will be picking up the lion's share of new entrants into serious photo systems as well as the system switchers.

    I think we are already there. I’d have a lot of trouble recommending a DSLR over a A7III, assuming the buyer has the budget for it.
    Post edited by mhedges on
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,729Member
    edited March 3
    HankB said:

    .
    In other words, Nikon must beat Canon to market.

    Which Nikon already failed to do, Canon already has a sizeable part of the mirrorless market locked down. While Nikon was screwing around with the the joke that was Nikon 1, Canon started with APS-C and while they are behind Sony, they are closer than many people think.

    Canon played second fiddle to Nikon through the 1970’s and early 1980’s, but managed to toppal Nikon and has never looked back. I think long term many people will stick with Canon over Sony because they know they are in it for the long haul. Sony? They might just drop cameras next year, like they did with computer monitors and other stuff since they no longer helped the image of the brand. Just not trustworthy, no matter how good the tech is.

    Nikon has not been a market leader in innovation, ever. Look at the history, they tend to look at what others are doing and usually end up doing it slightly better, but never enough since the 1980’s to grab serious market share. Whether Nikon brings mirrorless to market in March or September will matter very little in the long run, what will matter is whether or not the camera works well, and competes with Sony and Canon’s offerings. If it’s not good enough, it will be another Nikon 1 black sheep, something they can not afforded have happen. Delay is good, it means they want to do it right, not rush something to market to satisfy the hype train.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 235Member
    Nikon always had great digital camera's. 14 years ago they came with the D70 Pro camera, now we have the D850, D500, D7200, D7500, D750 and the D5000 serie has great sensors, what are the complains? Mirrorless combined with "small" is not the case anymore. Everybody is talking about camera's, only a few are talking about photographs.

    Last info: CIPA reports dramatic 28% camera shipment drop in January (source mirrorless rumors). Nikon is still here, I only hope it stays that way.

    This article is so ...... fun :) you should read it.

    https://www.fujirumors.com/photographers-anonymous-hate/
    User Ton changed to Ton14, Google sign in did not work anymore
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 5,747Moderator
    That was funny @Ton14.
    Always learning.
  • flipflip Posts: 89Member
    It is not clear to me how Nikon could stand out with a new mirrorless in the current market. Perhaps a svelte, very compact FF with a small selection of frightening sharp lenses (new mount), competing with the Leica Q size and quality wise, at perhaps half the price of the Q. 36mps and in body vr.

    But how many would they sell and at what margin? Though something like this would have an initial following, my doubts that it would steal a large # of customers from the likes of Fuji and Sony. Perhaps some converts from canon and leica.

    Leica has moved into phone technology with its chinese jv. Good and interesting product though at a premium (heiwei). Too late for Nikon once again, if there was any room in that market either.

    I have always enjoyed nikon products though they were always slow in competing in the sandbox. Canon's new product announcements far eclipses Nikon's. Where was nikon in announcing new t/s lenses? Canon just announced 3, nikon 1 about a year ago. Canon's 200-400 with internal converter is several years old - nikon just recently announced its version.

    In fact, small company Leica appears to have exceeded nikon with new product announcements (several new lenses for sl and m along with M10).

    Unless you are a niche player with high margins, a smaller rival cannot compete with the market leaders when overall sales are declining.

    Sales of the d850 alone cannot support nikon's future.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,499Member
    edited March 4
    I am talking about pictures because I want it silent so I can stuff the minister who says only 3 photos during the wedding service but I don't need it to black out like the D850.
    Perhaps they are going for a curved sensor ( should that not be dished sensor ?) but then how do you do an adaptor for the old lenses unless that adaptor has a lens in it .
    oh of course I want it cheap say $1500 for the body
    Post edited by Pistnbroke on
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 309Member
    The lens compatibility issue is an albatross for companies with large existing user bases like Nikon and Canon. It’s a no win scenario. If you keep backwards compatibility than you lose many of the potential benefits that can be realized with a mirroless design. If you don’t you anger your user base.

    This kind of thing is one of the reasons companies have trouble surviving when technology fundamentally shifts.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,729Member
    flip said:

    It is not clear to me how Nikon could stand out with a new mirrorless in the current market.

    Simple, make a sold camera that is a good photography tool that works well with both native mount and existing F-mount Nikkor lenses (through an adaptor if need be). The existing lens base is Nikon’s greatest strength and only real hope for survival. Nikon has also always excelled in image processing, beating Sony time and time again even with the same sensors, usually by at least half a stop.

    If Nikon can get those things right, and make a camera that is as good or better than the Sony A7III for enthisit users, and a A9 competitor they have an advantage of lenses and superior image quality right out of the gate.

    Also, you can fault Nikon’s lens lineup for many things, but as for the 200-400, least we forget Nikon had that lens, without the TC, for nearly 10 years before Canon final made one with a TC.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • ggbutcherggbutcher Posts: 209Member
    To me, the sensor is the first thing, and I believe Nikon would do well to box their most capable FF sensor in a mirrorless enclosure. Then, worry the lens thing.

    That said, capitalizing on their current lens stable is pretty important, too.

    I'm currently an APS-C shooter (D7000), and may die that way, I don't have too much budget to switch gears. FF is firstly in my consideration to do so, but I'm waiting to see how mirrorless goes. The D850 is calling, but we're on a technology cusp here....
  • snakebunksnakebunk Posts: 755Member
    These are interesting times. I have a feeling that Nikon will come out with very good mirrorless cameras. But they shouldn't wait too long.

    Personally I haven't bought any F mount stuff for over a year, and I don't think I will until Nikon shows their plans (maybe a used D810 when my backup D800 fails).

    I hope Nikon continues to make big ergonomic cameras even when mirrorless. I think there is a niche there.
  • HankBHankB Posts: 172Member
    I don’t see why Nikon couldn’t produce a CHEAP adapter that would look and work like an extension tube for any F mount lens with its own focus motor. This would be an easy, elegant, cost effective, smooth transition path to a new system.

    "E" lenses (lenses with internal electronic stop-down motor) could use an even simpler adapter.
    And although older lenses would no longer auto-focus, they would be so much easier to manual focus through an EVF.

    Nikon has an unmatched history of backward compatibility for not just cameras, but for just about any sophisticated manufactured product. But now, the adapter length needed to bridge the shortened flange to sensor spacing is a one time golden opportunity to totally redesign the mount after half a century!

    Nikon would be smart to distribute such adapters at cost. To resist the urge to price gouge for an adapter(s) has a precedent — decades ago, I believe it was when Nikon introduced through-the-lens metering, they offered a lens modification service for older lenses at a very modest price.
    snakebunk said:


    I hope Nikon continues to make big ergonomic cameras even when mirrorless. I think there is a niche there.

    One of the raps against mirrorless is short battery life. Put enough battery power inside for 1000-2000 shots will make it "big ergonomic"
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 309Member
    I don’t see how you could do a dished/curved sensor and still maintain F mount compatibility. I’m not an optics expert but I don’t think it would be possible to make an adapter that would work with all lenses, or even one that would work with more than one lens. So if they want to keep some form of compatibility they would have to concede that advantage. I’m not sure how big of a deal that is - I thought most of the lens design benefit you get from mirrorless is from the mount being closer to the image plane.

    As others have said, it should be possible to do an extension tube style adapter to allow use of F mount lenses. AF should be fine on motor equipped lenses, but probably lost on screw drive lenses. Which is fine with me - I would think the cost and effort needed to support screw drive focus would be better spent elsewhere.
  • HankBHankB Posts: 172Member
    mhedges said:

    AF should be fine on motor equipped lenses, but probably lost on screw drive lenses. Which is fine with me - I would think the cost and effort needed to support screw drive focus would be better spent elsewhere.

    Yes, screw drive lenses would become manual focus lenses...BUT back in the olden days, manual focus was so much easier with split image and micro prism focusing screens. Manual focusing on today's DSLRs totally sucks. EVF with proper focusing modes would equal and even surpass those old, great focusing screens.
  • BabaGanoushBabaGanoush Posts: 251Member
    PB_PM said:

    Delay is good, it means they want to do it right, not rush something to market to satisfy the hype train.

    Nikon should have been working on a full mirrorless line of cameras for years by now. In this case, delay is not a good sign; it is a bad sign, the result of an abject failure of Nikon management, either through gross incompetence or cowardice, to look into the future to see where their company needed to go in order to thrive. You can try to sugar coat the absence of Nikon from the mirrorless market, but I would claim it is indicative of intractable problems in a dysfunctional organization that might not be fixable. Now it is also conceivable that, given the apparent scarcity of the high-in-demand D850s, that Nikon actually has a wonderful surprise for us, namely, that it''s manufacturing facilities are too busy producing a soon-to-be-announced mirrorless camera to meet the demand for the D850. We can only wait and see if that's the case. The problem here is that Nikon's management has always been so secretive in the past, there's no reason for any consumer to trust the company is going in the right direction. By comparison, Canon has been more forthcoming publicly with its plans for the future. Nikon could learn an important lesson from Canon and try to be a lot more open about its road map for cameras and lenses. Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen. And that's why I expect Nikon's future options will narrow and its market share will continue to shrink. Remember, just a year or two ago the big hit against Sony was its limited offerings of lenses in E and FE mount. Now Sigma is joining Zeiss to produce a full line of quality lenses for Sony cameras. Don't make the mistake of thinking Sony is standing in place. Sony has Nikon in its sights. They are going after Nikon's market. They could very well succeed. At least, that's what I expect.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,729Member
    edited March 8
    Sony’s target is Canon and Nikon, that has been the goal since they bought out Menolta in the early 2000s (they even stated it when doing so). Sony’s problem has never been the cameras themselves, many of them are more attractive than Canikon on paper, but the software side still plagued them to this day. While Canon and Nikon have serious UI issses, Sony is far worse. Sony still trails in image processing as well.

    Nikon clearly had management and vision issues, which is why the previous CEO stepped down two years ago (at the request of shareholders no doubt). Since then there has been a shift, at least somewhat (higher prices, cheaper parts, lowering build quality). It was shortly after the CEO change that talk of a Nikon mirrorless camera started, I doubt that was a fluke. The funny part is Nikon has had the tech for years, because despite the tiny sensor the Nikon 1 were great cameras, fast and accurate focusing, good software (all be it crippled), and good image processing when compared to contemporary 1 inch sensor cameras from Sony. All Nikon had to do is upsize it, but the old CEO didn’t want to canablize sales, and lacked vision. Since it generally takes 2 years to develope a new camera (not a rebabge like the D3xxxx and D5xxxx series does every year), they would be right on schedule releasing the camera this summer or fall. By delay, I mean that time frame, rather than spring, not being off by years.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • rmprmp Posts: 447Member
    Smart phones are getting smarter every day. They already challenge point-and-shoot cameras. Computational-photography is gaining capability every day. At some point (time) the technology will change. When, is the only question remaining.
    Robert M. Poston: D4, D810, V3, 14-24 F2.8, 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8, 80-400, 105 macro.
  • BabaGanoushBabaGanoush Posts: 251Member
    PB_PM wrote: "they would be right on schedule releasing the camera this summer or fall. By delay, I mean that time frame, rather than spring, not being off by years."

    I certainly hope you are right about the timing. In addition to Nikon (formerly D800, now D7200), I shoot Panasonic (GX8 + GX85) as well as Sony (A6300) mirrorless. I've dabbled in mirrorless for a couple of years now and find it meets all of my personal needs except in lowlight situations, which is why I continue to shoot with the D7200. By this coming October, I plan to "rationalize" my collection of cameras and settle on one full frame mirrorless model, be it the Sony A7rIII or the anticipated Nikon mirrorless camera, whichever one is available at the time. In anticipation of that move, and presuming any Nikon mirrorless system will come with its own native lenses, I've started disposing most of my Nikon DSLR lenses, keeping only the ones that I normally use with my D7200. By the end of the year (or shortly thereafter) I also expect to be rid of both my APS-C cameras, keeping the MFT cameras as my "small sensor" system in order to complement my "large sensor" FF mirrorless camera.
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