"Photographer Looking For People to Do Their Job Without Pay"

FlowtographyBerlin

Just saw this, thought I'd share it: http://tmblr.co/ZMJbBwowNk7a

Valid point, I'd say. :-)

spraynpray

Humorous, but it will not change anything. I just had a client refuse my quote for two shooters for her wedding from 0830 to 2030 for £650. That is nearly working for free.

Golf007sd

Never take a job that says "work for free or without pay." That shows you have very little respect for you talent or the manner in which you value yourself and skill level. If they change it to "looking for volunteers to help out" that has an entire different tone and the message you are sending out to the public at large when you offer your services. Moreover, it show that you are doing a good deed. Now that has value and brings you credibility.

proudgeek

I find myself in a related situation. Headed out to California for my wife's younger cousin's wedding. I know that money's tight for these two, so when they asked me if I would take some pictures at the events before and after their wedding (not the ceremony), I said why not, since I was lugging camera gear with me anyway. The only thing I'll end up bringing that I wouldn't have packed otherwise was a flash. It's no big deal.

The only thing I told them was that I didn't think it was ok for me to be shooting when the photographer they were paying was working, as I didn't want to get in her way (but in reality, by potentially getting shots that she might otherwise I've gotten, I'm taking food off her table). They didn't seem to understand, but agreed.

But yes, photography, like everything else, has fast become a commodity. Whether it's graphic design, web development ("oh my cousin's son can design my web site for me"), or writing, there's always someone out there willing to do it cheaper.

The key, for people like Spraynpray, is where do you add value that justifies the 650 pounds you're entitled to? No easy answers.

sevencrossing

it is a bit like all the threads along these lines

" I want to be a professional photographer and have already take on an important assignment in a weeks time
but I cannot afford any professional equipment ."

bland

Humorous, but it will not change anything. I just had a client refuse my quote for two shooters for her wedding from 0830 to 2030 for £650. That is nearly working for free.

That's a really fair price you quoted her. I'm sure she'll regret not using you once she gets her pictures.

spraynpray

These days with facebook and the like having such rubbish images on display from peoples camera phones, standards are so low that mediocre is the new good.

"Hey, I can take pictures using my phone - why do I need to PAY you?"

Golf007sd

@spraynpray: Individual with that mind set have no understudying of a service or a good. They see a big "rock" on a females hand and are impressed not knowing if it is glass, fake/cosmetic jewelry or the real thing. In my occupation potential passengers always ask me "are you a cab?" "are you with Uber?" My response is: "No I'm not a cab nor do I represent Uber. I'm a professional privet car service provider. You are welcome to hire my service for your transportation needs now or in the future. Please tell me your destination and I will give you a fair rate."

FlowtographyBerlin

it is a bit like all the threads along these lines

" I want to be a professional photographer and have already take on an important assignment in a weeks time
but I cannot afford any professional equipment ."

I'd say being able to do a good job is 80% you and 20% the equipment. Or something around there. Equipment is easy to get, just rent it. I think gear is really not that important in the discussion. It's more the other component you mentioned, "I want to be a professional photographer". There's so many people out there you buy an upscale camera, take a couple of pictures and then think they can do a great job as a professional photographer. They may. But most people I know, don't. Hence, I guess many people are used to crappy pictures (like @spraynpray said), and their image of photographers is that.

@proudgeek: Fair enough, your principle.

Never take a job that says "work for free or without pay." If they change it to "looking for volunteers to help out" that has an entire different tone

Yes, you're right. The only thing is, here I've never seen anyone advertise "work for free", it's always euphemized to "voluntary" and "help" and "experience" and all this kind of b.... It's cool for someone starting up, but here in Berlin, we have a huge problem with all those "volunteer" jobs. Because you always find some (sufficiently talented) idiots who will do it.

Would you mind telling us non-US people: What's a privet car? And who or what is Uber?

Golf007sd

FlowtographyBerlin: I will send you a message in addressing your question. Cheers

Msmoto

Let's stick closely to the photography topics please....this can become political in a heartbeat....

FlowtographyBerlin

@msmoto: I seem to be missing something here... Isn't this about photography?

spraynpray

I'm lost too... 8-}

JJ_SO

Don't forget the other two or three non-US people ... have no clue.

But am used to it ">

kyoshinikon

E650 seems a bit cheap if you ask me... I generally don't do weddings but it still seems a bit lowball already...

FlowtographyBerlin

@kyoshinikon: It's British Pounds, making it about 750 €. And first of all, that's the point of @spraynpray, it's already cheap, especially given that there's two photographers involved and it's the whole day.

Secondly, I think comments about how someone is charging too little always have to be put in the context of the market situation. It depends on where you live, who the client is, what the offer is etc. Yes it's low budget, then again, when I sometimes do events for non-whoohoo-we-have-budget clients, here in Berlin I can charge something like 300 € for 3 hours. That's three hours of hanging out at the event and shooting. The two hours involved for the mere selection of photos and another two, three or four for editing is this thing that no client actually thinks of. So that's also working for free. But it helps staying in business sometimes.

spraynpray

@kyoshinikon: It's British Pounds, making it about 750 €. And first of all, that's the point of @spraynpray, it's already cheap, especially given that there's two photographers involved and it's the whole day.

Secondly, I think comments about how someone is charging too little always have to be put in the context of the market situation. It depends on where you live, who the client is, what the offer is etc. Yes it's low budget, then again, when I sometimes do events for non-whoohoo-we-have-budget clients, here in Berlin I can charge something like 300 € for 3 hours. That's three hours of hanging out at the event and shooting. The two hours involved for the mere selection of photos and another two, three or four for editing is this thing that no client actually thinks of. So that's also working for free. But it helps staying in business sometimes.

Absolutely: The client doesn't have much money and has prioritised the photography below the wedding car, wedding dress, hair and make-up, honeymoon, wedding breakfast, discotheque, money behind the bar, etc. etc..

It is ultra cheap because there is a man day of basic editing in there too. LR4 will make it easy, but with the promise of giving 350 images on disc, it is still enough work to do for that sum.

Msmoto

IMO the professional photographer today has been caught up in the technical advances in imaging which makes a lot of people with no talent into "photographers". And the ability of many of the cameras to take technically exceptional photos even in the hands of these folks may contribute to the decline in what we know as good imaging.

And, in a similar light, I have seen many who are charging high prices, yet are far from being properly equipped, have poor service, and the images are at best marginal, and these also contribute to the idea that what one receives from a pro may not be worth what is paid.

If there were a high standard of quality and service one could actually ascribe to and be "accredited" this might be helpful to those who want good results and are willing to pay.

Benji2505

Humorous, but it will not change anything. I just had a client refuse my quote for two shooters for her wedding from 0830 to 2030 for £650. That is nearly working for free.

That's a really fair price you quoted her. I'm sure she'll regret not using you once she gets her pictures.

Maybe the client thought that this price is too low for a photog with good results and went with one that offered 2,000 pounds.

You have to know what you are worth and stick with it. Going down in pricing is a massive strategic mistake and might well ruin your reputation. My provocative thesis is that 90% of Mercedes owners buy it because the price tags translates into "we'll built car", so the price tag is a part of your product message.

Ironheart

+1 You attract a different class of buyer when you raise your price, as long as you are delivering a quality product. Look at Leica.

spraynpray

@Benji2505: @Ironheart:

The client actually said it was too much and went on to say she will ask friends and family to snap pics on their cameras (phones).

The price was that price because of the current expectations in the geographical area and market sector we operate in. If somebody comes along who wants a different package from us the price is different.

FlowtographyBerlin

@msmoto: Good points. Agree very much.

@Benji2505 and @Ironheart: While you're right in principle, this mechanism works only for very selected markets, and it's a rather romantic idea that the markets that most photographers face work that way in practice. If they did, business would be very simple, because everyone could just raise their price. Unfortunately (for us), reality often looks more like what @spraynpray described.

Golf007sd

@Benji2505, Ironheart, Msmoto, FlowtographyBerlin: Each of you have made very valid points.

As a service provider...that is after all what photographer do: provide a service....he or she needs to know the value of their work and the result it delivers as a finished service. If the consumer does not understand the value of your service, then the provider need to communicate how the service being deliver justifies the price being offered. This principle does not just apply to photography...it is very much the same in my line of work as well.

And for the record, the car I use to transport my guests from point A-to-point B...is a Mercedes Benz (I have two of them as well).

spraynpray

I smell pork... :@)

Msmoto

So did I

ThomasHorton

Everyone has a different expectation out of photography. If a person will be satisifed with a cell phone picture (and many are), they are not going to pay a "professional" "photographer" a ton of money. The value added per cost increase is not worth it in their eyes. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Not everyone wants (or wants to pay) for "high" "quality" "photographs" however those words are defined.

Every professional photographer needs to be able to quickly and completly answer this one question: "Why would I hire you instead of the hundreds of other photographers out there?"

A while back we were shopping around for a professional photographer and I was concerned at the number of "professional" photographers who could not answer that question, but could quickly and complety tell me their rates. They had no problems answering that question. But the question whether they are personally worth the cost seemed a little difficult for many of them.

I feel sorry for anyone trying to make a living out of producing any form of art. There are so many choices out there for the potential customer and more and more people are looking for somethign "good enough" when compared to the price.

Rare is the customer where cost is no object these days.

At my GF's daughter's wedding, they paid a "professional photographer" a goodly sum of money (glad I was not footing the bill) and the product was OK. I don't think it was good value for the money, and neither did the father of the bride (the one who paid actual money). But that's the risk when ever you hire a "professional" artist. Often you don't find out until it is too late.

Artists have a tendency to over-value their art. Photographers are learning that. The customers have already learned that.