New Distortion Control Firmware Update

spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,029Moderator
edited July 2013 in Nikon DSLR cameras
Does anybody know the answer to this question:

If you use editing software which has automatic distortion control software via a pre-programmed lens profile such as Lightroom, will the resultsof applying the profile be confused by the downloading and installation in the camera of the new (different) distortion control software?
Always learning.
«1

Comments

  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    The camera already has distortion profiles in it's firmware. So if there would be any confusion, you already saw the effect. It's only an update for the new lenses, I guess.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    It only applies to JPEG anyway, not RAW, so who cares?
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,029Moderator
    edited July 2013
    @Ironheart: You sure? I see a difference every time I apply it to my images. The difference I see depends on the lens I am correcting. I only work with raw data, and I fail to see what the difference would be raw or .jpg - it is lens related which affects both formats?

    @JJ_SO: I thought it probably was only to add new lenses, but that was not the impression I got when I read the Nikon site. Maybe I misunderstood - I'll look again.

    EDIT: OK, looking again, it does look like it is additions not changes. :\">
    Post edited by spraynpray on
    Always learning.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    Yes, I am sure. You may be looking at the embedded jpeg, but there is no change to the raw data. Very few settings affect RAW, hence the name. Only ISO, Active D-lighting and LENR affect raw files off the top of my head.

    If you don't believe me, grab your worst distorting lens and take a few snaps, or perhaps you will trust this guy:
    http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/camera-faq/which-camera-settings-apply.html
  • Vipmediastar_JZVipmediastar_JZ Posts: 1,708Member
    Who Will be the brave one to contact Nikon about it?
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    edited July 2013
    No need to, it's clear as day, try it for yourself
    Also, the fact that it can be turned on or off in post means that the raw file is pixel for pixel and an algorithm is being applied after the fact. Just like white balance, or any other non-destructive edit...
    Post edited by Ironheart on
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,029Moderator
    OK Ironheart, I am going to disagree with you on this, but I accept that we may all be arguing semantics. It is also easily possible I am wrong, but I can't see it yet.

    Whatever format you shoot in - raw or jpg, your screen shows a rendition of it that you adjust non-destructively in LR. Only when you export it do you 'bake' the changes you made into that copy. The information that comes off the sensor in raw is distorted, whether you choose to then process it to jpg in-camera and chuck the majority of the data away, or keep it in raw, that original data has the distorted image on it. The editing software then performs some reverse distorting magic to even out the image and that process is visible on the screen. I can't see what you are saying can be right (that it only affects .jpg's) as whether you shoot in jpg or raw, you export it as a jpg from LR anyway.

    Please enlighten me. :-?
    Always learning.
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    Difficult to enlighten you because I don't see much darkness. Most parts of the process you understand the same way I do. But Ironheart is right: In-camera correction of lens distortion does only happen to JPGs - for them no one needs LR, as they are already reduced in data, colour depth and dynamic range, plus added NR. I don't know, but in Capture One I can switch off lens correction.

    You can say, RAW needs LR for lens correction and the firmware update is only relevant if you switch the In-camera correction ON (I don't) and save JPGs in Cam.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    We must be talking semantics. RAW/NEF files are essentially a dump of the sensor data with very little (if any) modification. There is other information in there as well, such as EXIF data, picture settings, and a small thumbnail jpeg. If you have any of the picture control options turned on (White Balance, High ISO NR, Contrast, Sharpening, Distortion Control, etc...) those are used when the picture is displayed on the back of the camera. They are also used to create the tiny JPEG that is imbedded in the NEF file. If you happen to have NEF+JPEG turned on then all of the settings are also used to create the JPEG from the NEF.

    Assuming you only shoot RAW/NEF and/or toss away the JPEG that the camera produces, you will be starting over from the RAW file. If you happen to use Capture/View NX, it will look at all of the picture settings you had turned on in the camera and re-apply those to the RAW file again use algorithms from the computer rather than the camera. If you are using LR or Aperture it will display the thumbnail JPEG from the RAW until you start editing.

    Bottom line is, RAW is RAW. Almost nothing you do (aside from exposure controls) have any affect on the actual raw data. Are we on the same page?
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    small detail, @Ironheart : I set up Aperture not to use camera thumbnails. So I would put your sentence into "If you are using LR or Aperture it will display the thumbnail JPEG from the RAW until you start importing"
  • Vipmediastar_JZVipmediastar_JZ Posts: 1,708Member
    Ok. I remember when I got the d800 I was able to set distortion control to on or off..
    after the upgrade it is greyed out at On. Anybody else see this?
    Is it because i have a non Nikon lens? Same result if I set to raw or jpg for quality.
  • CEBluecloudsCEBlueclouds Posts: 1,130Member
    @ Vipmediastar.. Yes it's because you have a non Nikon lens. Distortion control would be grayed out with your New sigma 35 1.4 :)
  • Vipmediastar_JZVipmediastar_JZ Posts: 1,708Member
    Good info. At least it's not greyed out to off if we choose to shot jpg. Haha.
    I can't swap lens till tonight to verify so I thought I ask.
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    @spraynpray @Ironheart: I think you're both actually correct and in agreement, but just discussing lens correction at different points in the image creation process

    The confusion is because the original question refers to lens correction in two places: in camera, and in LR

    When Ironheart wrote that distortion control only applies JPEG, he only meant the in-camera one. The RAW data is left "untouched" in camera. He wasn't discussing LR at all.

    When spraynpray wrote that lens correction applies to both RAW and JPEG during export, he meant that for LR. LR indeed performs lens correction regardless of whether the import source was RAW or JPEG. LR shows the "non-destructive" changes on the computer screen, and only "bakes" the correction in during export (typically to JPEG).
  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    @spraynpray @Ironheart: Thank you both for teaching me something today regarding distortion control. :-c

    Cheers :D
    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,029Moderator
    @Ade: Yes, that is it in a nutshell. It was a matter of semantics after all.

    It happens I learned something too. I remembered wrongly when I thought imported .jpg's were correctable as well as raws. I just got a raw pic, imported it into LR4, enabled lens correction and saw it change shape. I went back in the history to before I enabled the profile and exported it as a jpg then re-imported it into LR4 and tried the lens profile on an uncorrected jpg and it doesn't work so that means @Ironheart was right (although it wasn't clear to me this was what he was getting at), if you want lens correction and you shoot .jpg's, you have to set it in camera as the lens profile correction in LR only works on .raw files. I will confirm this with two images shot in raw and shot in jpg later to take the import/export out of the process as something that could affect the results.
    Always learning.
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    edited July 2013
    No, actually you were right before, Lightroom can correct both JPEGs as well as RAWs.

    However, Lightroom uses different lens profiles for JPEG corrections vs. RAW corrections. And, by default, LR4 only includes JPEG profiles for a limited set of Nikon lenses:

    Nikon 6-24mm f/2.7-f/5.9 (Coolpix)
    Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8 DX
    Nikon 16mm f/2.8D
    Nikon 50mm f/1.8D
    Nikon 18-200 f/3.5-f/5.6 DX
    Nikon 14-24 f/2.8G
    Nikon 24-70 f/2.8G
    Nikon 70-200 f/2.8G

    For all other Nikon lenses, LR4 will not perform auto lens correction with a JPEG source. You can manually select a different JPEG lens profile, or manually input correction data, or make your own JPEG profiles using the Adobe Lens Profile Creator utility.
    Post edited by Ade on
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,029Moderator
    Ah, I wondered why there was only a short list of lenses sometimes (which doesn't include my 16-85, 50/1.4, 60/2.8 or 70-300VR).

    So what happens when you convert to DNG on import - I suppose it treats them as raws?
    Always learning.
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    Except the 16-85, none of those lenses gets better by correction. Corrections come always at the cost of resolutuion (but no always visibly).
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    @Ade, thanks for straightening this out for us :-) I was really just trying to make the point that if you shoot raw, you won't know or care about in-camera distortion control (or a handful of other in-camera "adjustments"). Post processing is as we say a "whole 'nuther" story.
  • fatrascalfatrascal Posts: 8Member
    So you absolutely need a card reader (either a stand alone one or a inbuilt one on your computer) to copy the .BIN file on the memory card.

    I tried to put the firmware on the CF card by connecting the D4 to my pc computer using the USB cable, but cannot write to the card as its Nikon formatted.

    Any ideas?
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    edited July 2013
    Isn't a card reader a good idea anyway? This one costs $35. You have a $6000 camera. That's like saying you can't afford a tire pressure gage for a Ferrari :-)
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Memory-Card-Readers/ci/1096/N/4037060555
    Post edited by Ironheart on
  • fatrascalfatrascal Posts: 8Member
    Seems like you are knowingly being casual about my post, just to be able to throw a cliche. I don't talk about cost's in my post at all.

    My camera is a business tool, and I know what auxiliaries I need to sustain my work.

    I want opinions from other D4 users if there are known alternates to load a firmware without the use of a card reader (standalone or inbuilt on computer).

    If I had a Ferrari, chances are it would be a pleasure car and only my mechanic would have the opportunity to get his hands dirty with tire gauge. My corolla does have one in the glove compartment. :)
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    It doesn't matter if it is a d4 or a d5000, you need a card reader to place the .bin file in the root directory on the card. Period. Files can only be downloaded from the camera via USB not uploaded. Even if you could you wouldn't get acess to the root directory, just the folder with the pics. If I were you I would follow the instructions that Nikon provides. Doing anything else risks bricking your camera. What is so hard about pulling the card and dropping it into your computer?
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    edited July 2013
    Having a camera as business tool and needing other opinions about card-readers or uploading bin-files directly to cam appears to be a bit funny to me. On the bright side, @fatrascal didn't ask to do it without card, only via cable (that would make things easier)

    I like to keep the covering flaps of the interface sockets in tight shape, I always take the cards out to download the files. And since only D800 has USB 3 connection, there's no speed advantage of keeping CD and XQD card inside the camera's bays. But I'd look for a reader with CF and XQD bays. If it reads SD as well, nice.
    Post edited by JJ_SO on
Sign In or Register to comment.