help me spend my money for a macro lens

NSXTypeR

yes, i think renting is going to be essential in this situation, its just so hard to judge, and yes i have found somewhere i can rent all these lenses, so thats good news

i am really leaning towards a tilt-shift, as id just rather be able to choose razor thin focus, or all in focus, at my convenience. the 105 clearly takes excellent images, and is a great price, however from what i can see the DOF is just going to be too thin for the times i dont want it to be too thin

i think i am going to have to rent them and do some tests !

Tilt and shift is an option, especially when you're going for more depth of field and if you're working in a studio setting.

I have no idea how that stuff works though.

WestEndBoy

yes, i think renting is going to be essential in this situation, its just so hard to judge, and yes i have found somewhere i can rent all these lenses, so thats good news

i am really leaning towards a tilt-shift, as id just rather be able to choose razor thin focus, or all in focus, at my convenience. the 105 clearly takes excellent images, and is a great price, however from what i can see the DOF is just going to be too thin for the times i dont want it to be too thin

i think i am going to have to rent them and do some tests !

Tilt and shift is an option, especially when you're going for more depth of field and if you're working in a studio setting.

I have no idea how that stuff works though.

The reproduction ratio is not as high on the pc lens. Some might not call them real macro lens. I might try extension tubes, but am not sure how they work with pc lens.

WestEndBoy

oh right, i had read it went to f57, perhaps that is a mistake ?

Mistake...F32 is the most.

One thing that occurs to me is that the aperture range changes when you get close for both lenses. Instead of going to F4 or F2.8, they will go to F6ish or F4ish. At narrow end, you might get to F50ish.

Golf007sd

@mikep: Glad you have a place to rent the lenses we have been talking about. Give us your feedback after you have played with them all for a good few days and on a shoot. Finding a balance that will suit your need is within your grasp. "Take it...it's yours" as Achilles said in the movie Troy :P

WestEndBoy

Here is a good article on why you need a 200mm lens for serious macro work:

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.I/id.39/.f

WestEndBoy

And a good article on Macro:

http://www.bythom.com/qadmacro.htm

WestEndBoy

And if you really want to spend money, here is an excerpt that I just posted in the RRS thread:

When I buy my 200mm F4, I will buy this:

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.4908/.f

and this:

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.5325/.f

and a couple of these:

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.5124/.f

to accomplish this (see the picture at the top):

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/sc.26/category.602/it.C/.f

Almost adds up to the cost of the 200mm F4, but it will a nice piece of kit.

WestEndBoy

+1 for the 200mm f4 Macro!

i dont really want to do a bunch of focus stacking as surely it will just add a lot more time to the work, and i would like the option to have either a shallow DOF, or the whole product in focus should i choose

Mikep, here is an excellent article on focus stacking so that you can think about your workflow:

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.I/id.42/.f

Godless

so, i am considering buying a new lens for small product stuff. .

Sigma 150mm f/2.8 OS would be my choice for Nikon.

sevencrossing

.....Tilt and shift is an option......I have no idea how that stuff works though.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/tilt-shift-lenses2.htm

Msmoto

I have come to the conclusion focus stacking where possible, is the answer to obtaining the best images. So, my RRS focusing rail was to have been delivered two days ago…. ( SNOW!

mikep

thanks for the articles, i like the look of that focusing rail

it is really hard for to imagine how a tiltshift works in my mind, i think playing with one will be necessary to fully understand whats going on

msmoto, are you saying that it is better to stack than to tilt shift? any reason why ?

WestEndBoy

Tilt shift, aka perspective control, solves a different problem than focus stacking.

PC is useful when you the plane that you want in focus is not parallel to the camera sensor. Think a building that rises up. It also ensures the lines don't converge.

With macro photography, this is usually not the issue (though sometimes it might be an issue). The primary issue is usually depth of field (dof). You might be taking a picture of a bug and only part of the bugs eye are in focus. Or you stop it down and still only part of the head or if you really stop it down, only part of the body is in focus. This is why you will need a flash with macro because you are usually at f12 or greater (and why auto-focus is not that useful).

PC will not help with this problem. Once you have stopped it down all you can and stuff is still not all in focus, focus stacking is the only remaining solution.

Now, you might have PC and dof issues with one subject. Focus stacking might be helpful, but PC could be helpful in that situation. However remember that Nikon PC lenses only have a maximum reproduction ratio of 0.5, so they are not true macro lenses. To get further magnification, you will need extension tubes or bellows and I am not sure how these will work on a PC lens. You will be amazed how often you will want more magnification even with a 1.0 reproduction ratio.

Golf007sd

A few thing that I would like to bring to our attention:

1) ALL macro lenses can be used in Manual mode..it is as easy as flipping the switch. The AF is there (like the one on 105 2.8) so that the lens can used in other setting, outside the macro world, more efficiently.

2) Tilt Shift Lenses can produce amazing images, but they do take time to master. Thus, you really need to play with them for a while before you take it on a job.

3) Product shot vs insect and/or other nature stuff may not need the type of image detail/focus as a rule. I have seem many product shot that have a nice level of DOF where the heart of the product is concentrated on while the other parts of the image smoothly fade away into the bokeh. It is all about what the photographer wants to share and if the client likes the result. Thus, focus stacking may not be necessary for this type of shooting.

sevencrossing

it is really hard for to imagine how a tiltshift works in my mind, ?

Any chance of borrowing an old mono rail or technical camera to "play" with
No need to use any film, you can see the effect clearly on the ground glass screen
Most of the old standard text books will cover the subject ( chapter11 of the 1958 edition of the Ilford Manual of photography )
http://www.amazon.co.uk/THE-ILFORD-MANUAL-OF-PHOTOGRAPHY/dp/B000RWFRSG
In essence the film plane the lens panel , and the line you want focus, must meet
with no a tilt shift, they will meet at infinity
There is no advantage if you are square on to the subject, it is only an advantage, if you are shooting at an angle

Msmoto

Tilt shift is probably most useful in close focused product photos, but not really so great in macro unless a flat subject is approached from an angle. Here is an example of f/25 with the 105mm f/2.8 VR Macro Nikkor, and if the lens could have been tilted to accommodate the plane of the subject, the image may have been improved, IMO


Shifting the lens is mostly for architectural images, but also helpful in shooting products in the studio.

WestEndBoy

Tilt shift is probably most useful in close focused product photos, but not really so great in macro unless a flat subject is approached from an angle. Here is an example of f/25 with the 105mm f/2.8 VR Macro Nikkor, and if the lens could have been tilted to accommodate the plane of the subject, the image may have been improved, IMO


Shifting the lens is mostly for architectural images, but also helpful in shooting products in the studio.

You would need an extension tube to get the same reproduction ratio. Does anybody have experience with combining a tilt shift lens with an extension tube?

paulr

This link may help you with regard to how the Schneider PC TS lens can be used and the advantages of this type of Lens over conventional lenses. and where DOF can be gained

Msmoto

Yes, I think it goes without saying that in close work one uses extension tubes or a bellows to get the focus. I was bidding on an old Nikon bellows with tilt/shift on eBay, but it got to $285 and I decided to go with an RRS focus rail instead and use extension tubes. However, now that the subject has been raised…..I will play with a tilt shift and try to get an example up on this thread.

mikep

yeah i saw that one thanks paulr, which is leading me to think that tilt shift is really the way to go for this kind of thing

another thing which has occurred to me is also, a tilt shift will allow a shallow depth of field @ a small aperture, therefore allowing slow shutter speeds that wont cause problems with staying slower than 250th of a second shutter. a problem i found with using studio strobes is that when i tried to use my 24mm f1.4 @f2 to take a picture of some food with a shallow DOF, it was simply letting far too much light in. i was not able to drop my iso, i was already at the lowest -0.9 or whatever it was, and i couldnt speed up the shutter because flash was preventing me from going any faster than 250th / second. the only option left open to me was to use a 10 stop ND filter - which isnt ideal

so, while i still intend to hire and do some tests before i buy one, i am thinking that a tilt shift will solve two problems. 1) larger DOF when required, 2) shallow DOF @ small aperture (F8 etc) thus remaining compatible with flash sync speed

Msmoto

OK, I shot one exposure and lucked out…. D4, 24mm f/3.5 PC Nikkor, 12 mm extension tubes f/27. SB-800, custom softbox. Note the DOF is pretty nice, although if one looks critically at this image it leaves a lot to be desired. About 8mm of forward tilt was used. (If that is what the little lines on the lens mean…LOL)

WestEndBoy

24mm macro? The lens must have been an inch from the subject.

Msmoto

@jshickele

For sure… and you have pointed out the issues of short focal length in macro….one cannot get light on the subject! I think for products, one of the following might be best for products:
Nikon PC-E Micro Nikkor 85mm f/2.8D Manual Focus Lens

Schneider PC TS Makro-Symmar 90mm f/4.5 Lenses

Schneider PC TS Apo-Digitar 120mm f/5.6 Lens

WestEndBoy

If Schneider made a 24mm, I would be tempted to buy it for architecture.

paulr

They made a Schneider28mm T/S lens and according to this link Schneider intend to bring a new version out,
http://www.jenerikimages.com/blog/2013/11/18/comparing-the-schneider-28mm-pc-to-the-nikon-24mm-pc-e
I have found that Tilt/ shift lenses take some time to get used to, had the Nikon one, but it was not for me, however the Schneider 90 is a lot more user friendly,

Msmoto The Schneider PC Ts 120mm is for Phase One medium format cameras