Nikon 70-200 F4 vs F2.8 , anyone tested ?

Ironheart

Ah jeeze, what's the big secret? We're all big boys and girls here, I think we can handle the truth!

[Deleted User]

A shot from a jazz concert this evening - I'm convinced!



D3s 70-200 f/4 @ 200mm 1/125s f/4 ISO 7200

JJ_SO

@darkslide: Me too =D>
@Ironheart: I can't. Handle the TRUTH. Too scary. (~~)

But my truth is: even the Nikon collar is worse than no collar. I was right with my cautious guess. I checked this with one of this laser-levels, a very cheap one, but sufficient for my purpose. Here's what I did:



Set up the camera on two different heads. This was "the better one", the Gitzo GH3750 showed slightly more vibration.
the laser level is laid just on the hotshoe, I wanted to set up a fragile thing, so it's exagerated a bit.
I pointed the camera to a window frame about 4 meters distant and adjusted the laser beam.
Then I filmed the moment of shutter release with another cam (forgive me the quality and the size, but I'm not into movies)
Here's the moment of release

http://sojujo.smugmug.com/Other/NR/i-PBMpxWB/0/M/GH3750_Movement_with_collar-M.jpg

and

http://sojujo.smugmug.com/Other/NR/i-n57tNSc/0/M/GH3750_Movement_with_Camera-M.jpg

To me, it's obvious the collar is opposite of "improvement" :-q But I don't see that as the collar's fault, it's just the tube of the lens the collar has to be attached to which is too soft.

Msmoto

@ darkslide

If you look at the ARCA Swiss thread....all "Chinese copies" of RRS

And, your image....I guess when one can see the guy's dandruff on his suit the lens is good...

pippigurl

So couple of question...PB_PM is the lens light enough that you would put faith in attaching the body to your head? JJ had said that the lens tube was just to weak to add the collar. Your thoughts.
Dark side I did find the Chinese collars and the price is right at $40-50. Can we use you as a testing ground?
Golf I will look again tomorrow on the RRS site but didn't see one this afternoon.
Donald...you can find them on eBay.

PB_PM

@pippigurl I don't have the 70-200mm F4, but every lens that I have used that had a tripod collar was better off with it, when used on a tripod (70-200mm F2.8, 300mm F4, 300mm F2.8). I have used the Canon 70-200mm F4, which weighs about the same, and it was okay without a collar, but I sure would have liked having one.

[Deleted User]

Frankly the collar is pretty useless to me in the concert/theatre configuration as I'm never likely to use a tripod/monopod. But in the event I ever go back (lol) to landscape photography, I'll be the first to bolt either the camera or the lens on a tripod, otherwise I'll probably end up with something like this...



Just teasing!

[Deleted User]

@msmoto The dandruff was added in post!! Seriously, just take a look at his hair/beard - pretty conclusive to me, wide open at 200mm.

[Deleted User]

Dark side I did find the Chinese collars and the price is right at $40-50. Can we use you as a testing ground?

For us here in France the price is quoted as 28€ - as for using me as a testing ground...rather largely depends what's on offer (lol) Seriously though, I'll report as and when it arrives.

JJ_SO

@pippigurl I don't have the 70-200mm F4, but every lens that I have used that had a tripod collar was better off with it, when used on a tripod (70-200mm F2.8, 300mm F4, 300mm F2.8). I have used the Canon 70-200mm F4, which weighs about the same, and it was okay without a collar, but I sure would have liked having one.

I completely understand your vote for collars - I would have signed the same paper. It's just this lense's body which doesn't appear to be stiff enough. The 70-200/2.8 has a metal tube where the collar becomes fixed to. Others too. The 70-200/4 had to be less costly and therefore they used a plastic ring. I can squeeze it with my fingers and when I'm knocking on it with my fingernail it makes a sound as if there's some space below.

Can anybody of the lens owners try this, too?

[Deleted User]

No problem - just give us a list of pipes and we'll create a spreadsheet with noise values...

Come on JJ_SO, we're talking TUBE here, with a collar that fixes around the tube - whether or not there is a void below is completely immaterial as the tripod collar is not attaching at any one point but around the entire lens body. Frankly I think you'll have your work cut out trying to 'implode' the lens barrel unless there's really inhuman pressure put on it.

Golf007sd

@darkslide Exactly what do you find so humors about the site?

[Deleted User]

@darkslide Exactly what do you find so humors about the site?

The spelling mistakes for one thing...!!

You?

JJ_SO

@darkslide: You don't need to implode the barrel to get a tiny more movement with barrel / collar vs. camera directly on tripod. The innerside of the collar has felt stripes, the barrel is not stiff enough - that's the way to get an unstable flexible connection which influences the amount of vibration of the whole set.

Somebody please proof me wrong ) but convincing!

[Deleted User]

I'm sorry JJ_SO but I just can't get my head around the idea that if there's a tripod collar out there, that it's not meant to be used.

Let's look at this a different way - most users of the new 70-200 f/4 will probably own recent, and therefore much lighter cameras than what was around when the original 70-200 f/2.8 came out. I'm happy to (almost) agree that there might be a problem of vibration using my camera body (D3s) due to it's weight, but then, with such a light lens I'd probably mount the camera and not the lens on the tripod.

I have no proof of any of this, and as I don't now how to video anything I won't be posting a video either - your test was a good idea though.

PB_PM

A good solid tripod, a remote, and some patience are all you need if using a long exposure is required. Unless you are grabbing and shaking the lens and the body (unnecessary to hold both with a tripod) there should be no issue.

The default collar on the 300mm F4 is considered horrible, by some people, but I've never had any issue with it. Yes it is not smooth when rotating, but it being the causing motion blur in long exposures, as some suggest, is not my experience.

JJ_SO

The longer the exposure is, the less an initial movement caused only by shutter vibrations becomes visible. But maybe other vibrations, while exposing. I just said goodbye to the idea, the collar of the 70-200 is as reliable and solid for connection with camera/lens and tripod as the camera itself is.

Now I become curious. What will my heads do, with and without collar? Will the battery grip, which is kind of wobbly, change the results? I'm not counting fragments of millimetres because it's fun, I just want to know what I have really to do to get my personal best results.

pippigurl

Golf...found it on RRS....link below

http://reallyrightstuff.com/Items.aspx?code=LenNik70-200f4&key=cat

Thanks

Msmoto

@ JJ_SO

Your links do not work as best I can tell...

Here is one I think works

http://sojujo.smugmug.com/Other/NR/27416707_FWW2H6#!i=2324388774&k=QSzM4kt&lb=1&s=X3

But this setup shows the collar holding a level, not supporting the camera weight,etc. ???? How does this test the collar?

JJ_SO

@msmoto: I'm sorry for that links not working. Maybe I put the videos to YouTube if that is simpler to integrate.
http://sojujo.smugmug.com/Other/NR/27416707_FWW2H6#!i=2324388774&k=QSzM4kt
The link above leads to a small gallerie. The last two uploads are the videos I tried to link in. They just show the movement, nothing else.
The photo should have shown the principal set-up. I admit, it could have been clearer.
The level was always on top of the body.
In one sample the body's plate was connected to the tripod head.
In the other sample, the plate with the collar was connected to the tripod head. Then it was turned down, but there's not enough space at the geared head to leave both plates facing downwards.
There's no reason to support the camera while using the collar.

JJ_SO

After writing a long post which was eaten by the forum monster, starting again from scratch:

I tried 5 different heads, I tried with and without battery grip. But my conclusion stands: the tripod collar RT-1 is not only expensive but also making pictures worse than without it. The lens is not embraced thightly enough by it, the connection is soft due to a flexible plastic tube and increases the amplitudes of shutter vibrations between 3 and 5 times!

When using the setup with the laser beam, it was with each head clearly visible that Nikon did a bad job. May I show you?

Body fixed on tripod, shutter operated with cable release and "mirror up"


RT-1 fixed on tripod, shutter released manually, without "mirror up"


RT-1 fixed on tripod, cable release, without "mirror up"


Body fixed on tripod, shutter operated with cable release and without "mirror up"


The pictures above were made with a distance of 5 metres, solid tripod and ball-head, no VR and afterwards cropped for 100%. Each line on the scale has a width of 1mm.

These YouTube clips show the smallest and biggest movement (Smallest movement

Biggest movement

And here's an overview of the various setups



Now I just wonder what the Nikon people will say to that. They are experienced with trouble shooting and fixing new things... :-\"

JJ_SO

I'm not familiar with "NM", sorry. What does this mean?

PB_PM

I wrote something that doesn't matter, so I deleted it. (NM = Never Mind)

JJ_SO

Ah, thank you for explaining.

donaldejose

Thanks for all your work. Great examples. I like the laser videos. I did not purchase the Nikon tripod foot when I purchased the 70-200 f4 because I expected to use it handheld. I had thought I may get a Chinese copy but I think it is best not to use any at all since both the original and the copy would have the same weaknesses.