I Hate Professional Photographers! (Edit - title is a joke, to catch attention)

Hval

2014/07/28 @ 13:04hrs - EDITED TO ADD
It has been brought to my attention that I give the impression that I am asking for advice on how to make money. Please don't think that. It was my intention to spark a discussion about both sides of the photography equation - spectators and professionals. One thing I did leave out of my original posting (below) is the fact that my tickets specifically exclude me from selling any photographs taken as a spectator.

Edit Two. Someone has taken umbrage at my title and just about everything I have written. I have therefore edited the title.

Let me start by saying that I used a "sensational Byeline" to catch your attention. The Title is a joke to catch your attention, and hopefully provoke debate - my poor idea at humour.

Would you all be generous enough to indulge me and to pardon my rudeness? If you are willing to do so, then I thank you, I bow to you and say "Play on".

This evening I attended a Commonwealth Games event, here in sunny Glasgow, Scotland (it rained). I am an amateur photographer who has been noticed by universities for my photographs for my wife (who is doing an MSc). They use my photographs, after having asked, free - unless they use them for a published document. I have had photographs of military stuff published as well. The same goes for a certain other type of photography.

(Section removed explaining me having lots of kit - as it offended someone)

Over the past few days I have been at the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. For those not aware these are a sport event that has an audience of well over one billion people world wide. I have been taken a few photographs. I have been purchasing hugely expensive tickets in special locations. These do not give me the advantage a press photographer has, but with the limitations that I am given I think I have some fantastic images. I would also love the massive advantage that press photographers are provided.

Here is what happened. I was seated at Row B, in a near ideal position for taking photographs for Rugby. I paid for that. The unfortunate thing was the row of seats in front of me was kept free for the press photographers to run backwards and forwards from one end of the rugby pitch to the other. I don't mind that. What I do mind are the hundreds of children who then take up those seats and get in my way. I paid an arm and a leg to get the seats I had to prevent anyone in front of me. They blocked innumerable photographs, including exciting tries (touch downs for our American cousins). I lost out on all that money that I paid for that special area.

I am willing to pay what professional photographers pay to sit where they do, but I am not allowed to as I am not news paper affiliated, or what ever the Olympic committee/ Commonwealth Games committee decide is allowed.

Examples of what I got tonight include photographs of people and chats with people no other person got. Purely because of whom I was with and because I had the camera gear that was relevant ( well, nearly right).

I also hate that I am limited on what I can bring in to take photographs with. I can't bring a lens longer than 30Cm (12") long. I can't bring a bag longer than 30cm x 20cm x 20cm. The bag must be a soft sided bag that can be squashed beneath a sports seat. I am not allowed multiple bags. You also have to carry water (unopened) for several hoursIt really does limit you.

Tonights gear was a Nikon D300, a Nikon D800, a Nikon 70-200mm f2.8, a Nikon 300mm f2.8 plus 2 x teleconvertor. One camera and lens had to be carried by my wife and I carried the other camera and 600mm system. yet another advantage to professional photographers. I was lucky that none of the gear was damaged. To get to and from the venue I had to travel on the "Clockwork Orange". This is Glasgow's underground/ metro system. The whole network was worse than the London Underground at rush hour. I was terrify things would get damaged.

So, you professional photographers have it easy when it comes to trying to take photographs at sporting events. How do I get the same permissions to take photographs that you guys have? I want to be able to have the same opportunities as you. I am now wanting to sell pictures as I am now being noticed. I don't think I am a good photographer, but many other people do (god knows why, I still think that I am crap).

Symphotic

Too bad about your experience. But I know some full time pros, and I can tell you they don't have an easy life. I remember New Year's eve last year keeping company with an NPS member who was standing on a freezing street corner with two D4s and long heavy lenses. His assignment was to take pictures of the stock exchange scrolling marquee display. He had to be there for hours: it was cold, noisy, boring, and he couldn't even leave to go the the men's room. He works for a well known "newspaper of record." I looked in the paper next morning and his employer didn't use any of the shots he took.

bland

If you're going to shoot concerts you need to learn to shoot around people. That's just part of shooting concerts, it's a war zone.

Please don't take my post as a negative, it's just the way it is.

Ironheart

Hval, it can't be that hard to get legit freelance press/photographer credentials where you live. If you can't beat 'em join 'em

Gareth

I have to say I'm surpised they let the kids in there. I would have been pissed too.

There is only one way to get a press pass and that is brown nosing. How do you think the pros got theirs? Sports photos with professional gear are all much of a muchness, but only the people who grease the right wheels get to make a living at it.

You have to put up with what you got or spend many hours a week getting yourself noticed.

My advice is be happy with what you got, and happy that you don't HAVE TO make a living from it.

Vipmediastar_JZ

At least for one sports team in Chicago anybody can go and ask for a press pass for the day. I have emailed other people from major sports and I heard nothing from them. I had a contact with E S P N but I haven't heard from him. So I am too looking for ways to get some press passes unless I make my own right?
I got exclusive coverage on my cousins little league games on the field but its nothing like the Pro sports where it is highly regulated.

Hval

Some interesting answers. Please will you keep them coming.

Thank you to all those that have replied so far. As for making a living at it, no thank you. I envy profesional photographers in many ways, but not enough to do it professionally full time. I would still love the opportunity to do photography part time.

sevencrossing

So, you professional photographers have it easy .....).

One thing I can absolutely assure you, being a professional photographer , be it sport, wedding, commercial, scientific, real estate, wild life, underwater, aerial, portrait, architectural, press or what ever . IT IS NOT EASY.

It can be fun, it can be profitable, it can be dangerous, it can be very rewarding

BUT NOT EASY

I should add, my definition of working professionally is when, someone else tells you: what, where and when to photograph. If you fail, you may lose your job

as an amature, it is not the end of world , when you get home and the memory card is blank

Hval

sevencrossing.

I agree that for you it is to easy in some respects. The main one being able to get a picture or picture that your client has asked for. Where you guys do have a massive advantage is in location.

Here are a few from the Rugby matches last night

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I shall be adding more photographs to the set, on Flickr, tomorrow

safyre

I'm gonna be blunt here. Your rant really comes off as childish and pretty disrespectful to professional photographers who have to photograph in order to eat.

First off, nobody cares how much money you spent on equipment. Last time I checked, photographers make photos, not camera gear. If you don't have a portfolio to back it up, your gear is meaningless.

Secondly, you are not the only person in the world that has this situation, there's hundreds of thousands of other people that would like to take photos professionally but don't. Don't think that you're any bit special because you have thousands of dollars of camera equipment.

Third, the restrictions on camera equipment are there for a reason otherwise everyone and their mothers would bring full sized DSLRs with tripods and completely hijack the experience of the game, not to mention all the legal liabilities that come with it.

Fourth, if you really wanted to get on the sideline, stop wasting your time posting on this forum and spend it actually trying to get press credentials from any source, whether it be a publication, blog, website, magazine, etc. It is not impossible to do as long as you try and put your effort into it. I personally have been able to do so myself so It is more than possible.

Hval

Safyre,

No disrespect meant to anyone. I do not in anyway think of myself as special, anything but. I really don't know where you get that from. You seem a little bit delicate in your sensibilities. If I have offended you it was not my intention. I even apologised for trying to catch people's attention in paragraph three - I took the time to explain what I am after.

I am genuinely interested in hearing about the professionals and their problems compared to a totally different set of problems that an amateur has. I would love the opportunity to be able spend the time in the locations where professionals get to be. Do you know why I haven't? Because I don't want to get in the way of professionals who have to make money, when
I am doing it as a hobby.

bland

Do you know why I haven't? Because I don't want to get in the way of professionals who have to make money, when
I am doing it as a hobby.

fyi those shooting in front of the stage aren't making money and if one of them is it is very little. They're shooting it for the pictures to hang on their wall or promote themselves with.

The easiest way to access the pit is go to your local radio station and they'll get you setup with a photographer pass.

But I can tell you this and again I don't mean to be disrespectful, you can't be bothered by photogs shooting in front of you. As you have seen it's a war zone in the pit and you have to learn how to work around others with respect. There's zero tolerance for having an attitude in the pit, you must learn to work pleasantly with all involved or your concert shooting will be short lived.

Golf007sd

I, like a great majority of you, obtain nothing...nada...zero income from photography. However, I love my hobby and have enjoyed every time I have been out shooting with friends or by myself.

Personally, I feel for the pro's...they work their tail off to get that one shot that will hopeful see the light of day in some fashion. Moreover, to be a pro, at any task, is not easy. It take's years or detection and sacrifice to obtain that title. I will gladly give up a seat, should a pro needed my space to take a shot; hell if he see's a gear that I have and want to test drive it...all the better.

@Hval: Nice shot... you did great. Keep at it

Msmoto

In many years of shooting from "behind the fence" as I did not want to pay for credentials, shooting to provide "no fee images" to some of my friends, I have had only one time when a "professional" stood in front of me. All the rest looked back and moved so I could get my shot. It may have been the 400mm f/2.8 that helped them to see i was not a rank amateur, but whatever, for the most part, total courtesy is what I have experienced from the pros….. other than the one butt head who purposely blocked my view...

scoobysmak

I have had press passes before it wasn't too hard to get for the events I go to. If it was a major sporting even though I would not have a chance to get a press pass unless I had an incredible portfolio and didn't charge a dime for my photos.

The professionals I have ran into have all treated me with respect, so far I have not had an incident with anyone. I honestly feel for most professionals, they work their tail off and then half the time the pictures might not get used. In today's world it might be the "free" cell phone picture that gets published because the editor didn't have to pay anyone for it and it was good enough.

Symphotic

... All the rest looked back and moved so I could get my shot. It may have been the 400mm f/2.8 that helped them to see i was not a rank amateur, but whatever, for the most part, total courtesy is what I have experienced from the pros….. other than the one butt head who purposely blocked my view...

400mm f/2.8 is pretty intimidating.

My son, the L.A. cop, recently spent an hour or two chasing the paparazzi away from Taylor Swift's house. The papzz in L.A. can be butt heads. But if I had a 400 mm f/2.8 and a vespa, I might try it.

Hval

Thank you all for the replies they are illuminating, and very much apreciated.

Msmoto, how close are you able to get from outside? I have seen some of your photographs. I thought you were pretty close.

Oh yes, a few more from the other day. I did not go out tonight as it was a long and extremely stressful day. I felt I might hit someone if I went out. Shame, as there are only a few days left.

A few more photographs, anyway..

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paulr

I know a very well known Press Photographer who once said," No matter how good the shot is, it as to get by the Editor, and even when it does , it finishes up as Fish and Chip wrapping paper the next day".

Hval

fyi those shooting in front of the stage aren't making money and if one of them is it is very little. They're shooting it for the pictures to hang on their wall or promote themselves with.

As you have seen it's a war zone in the pit and you have to learn how to work around others with respect. There's zero tolerance for having an attitude in the pit, you must learn to work pleasantly with all involved or your concert shooting will be short lived.

Your comment about photographers not making money/ much money is very interesting. As for working together is hitting other photographers over the head with your monopod not allowed? :-)

I can actually see what you mean about working together whilst still being competitors. I have seen it often enough with paparazzi trying to interview some people.

Hval

I was at the hockey last night (grass hockey) and can't believe how difficult I found taking good photographs. I don't really know the game any more. Last time I played was over thirty years ago, and I have rarely watched a game since.

I was let through security (police and military) with the camera gear I had (D800, D300, Nikon 70-200mm, Nikon 300mm f2.8 and 2 x Teleconverter.). The rules for photography for spectators at the games is "no lens to be over 300mm in length". When I started to take photographs I was very politely stopped and questioned as to who I was and what was my intention with the photographs. I was questioned no less than five times, each time by someone higher up than the last person. Eventually I ended up being questioned by the Senior Press Officer. He wasn't happy with me. We had a slight discussion, where neither of us pushed the matter. For the remainder of the evening and night I had security and press liaison people standing behind me.

I had a chat with the senior press guy who was willing to grudgingly speak with me for a few minutes. I am really grateful for the time he gave me. He basically sad that if I had applied to the media centre at the start of the games I could have got media accreditation. He said there are a few people at the games (amateurs) who don't sell photographs, but are interested in photography, who got accreditation. He said that I should get a web site and put my photos on it. That makes it easier. He also said that once I got a few press accreditation at events it gets easier at other events. Oh yes, I would never get accredited at the Olympics.

The lens size rules are a bit silly in my opinion as a micro four thirds lens could be an 800mm equivalent, but still be within the rules.

I shall post a few hockey photos later (didn't get back until midnight) and am off out for the day.

Hval

A couple of photographs from the hockey.

I saw two matches. The first was Wales V Trinidad and Tobago. The second was Scotland V Malaysia. The wife and I loved watching the hockey.

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One of the Scottish hockey players
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sevencrossing

The rules for photography for spectators at the games is "no lens to be over 300mm in length".

Please correct me if I have got this wrong

Whilst the Match is open to the Pubic ( provided they pay a fee and abide by certain regulations) it is held on private property

If when entering private premises, you do not do as you are asked, you are technically committing a trespass

Trespass is not a criminal offence but by trespassing you lay your self open to being sued

Ok they will probably will not bother

but why are you taking such a risk ?

I appreciate the Law in Scotland is different to England

Hval

Sevencrossing,

First, any equipment I was using complied with the rules. Measure the length of the 300mm f2.8. It is about 268mm long. The media team, and security, also admitted that I complied. They couldn't do a thing about it. I even proved it to them, and offered to let them measure the length of the lens themselves.

As you also, correctly, state the laws are different in Scotland, particularly when it comes to trespass.

Where the hockey games take place is not a private place. The hockey pitches have been built on a place left in perpetuity to the people of Glasgow. Even if I had been breaking my "contract" they could only get me on that, and not something else.

As I wrote, however, I was in full compliance with all the rules specified when I purchased the tickets

Msmoto

@Hval

Finding a spot to shoot images at a race course is part of the challenge. I will sometimes be about 70 m away but for cars where the 400 works; for motorcycles, adding the TC-20EIII brings me in. If possible, I try to chat with the pros asking questions like I am really naive, and maybe this is useful…. but for the most part, the pros are extremely courteous with some exceptions.

Hval

@Msmoto,

Thank you for that. Except for here, I very rarely get to talk with professional / media photographers.

Are you using a monopod most of the time? As a spectator here monopods and tripods are mainly banned. Hand holding the 300mm with x 2 TC for a few days has given me sore shoulders. I am too unfit.

I am also going to get a dual Black Rapid strap. I kept getting one camera tangled.

Msmoto

If one does not setting the camera on the ground, when conditions permit, this certainly relieves the weight of a 400/2.8 and D4. But, often this is not the case.

For the most part, I seek out race venues which have the best conditions for the non-working photography group, and this dictates in almost all cases what i can capture.