D810 noise at 400 iso - am I imagining this or not?

no1youknowno1youknow Posts: 7Member
edited October 2014 in D6x0/D7x0/D8x0
Need a little help from the community. Thanks in advance.

I recently purchased a D810. Overall, I love it. Recently, I took an autumn afternoon shot of a tree top against a deep blue sky, at iso 400.

In the sky, there seems to be significant noise (viewed in camera at 100% zoom). I'm not tech-savvy enough to know what type of noise, but I would think that at 400 iso, a clear blue daylight sky should be virtually noise free, even at 36 mp. After raw processing (Aperture) it is the same. High iso noise is not the issue - this is low iso where I am surprised it is even there.

I've since taken other types of "test" shots and I'm recognizing the same type of 'noise' - or at least I think so.

I've looked at any article I can find about D810 noise and - to my eyes - no one seems to have an issue at iso's lower than 1000. I can't seem to 'see' the same thing in other folks shots.

So I don't know if this is normal (as in I'm looking too critically at it, or I'm imagining it?), or very odd. Perhaps I have a lemon? Maybe it's just a blue sky thing?

I'm hoping you all can take a look at the original raw image straight from the camera and give me your quick thoughts. View it at 100%.

Basically, I'm looking for either "no, that's normal" or "holy shit send it back".

Dropbox link is
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86540994/2014_1012_25061_.NEF

No1
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    Hmm...I do see what you mean when I'm looking at it at 100% (1:1). I'm leaning towards the lens...do you have any filters on it? Do you have a different lens to try?
    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,363Moderator
  • nek4lifenek4life Posts: 123Member
    I just looked at both shots from my D800 and D810 and the RAW files look like this, but looking at smaller jpg versions of the same files on Flickr I can't really see it at all. I can only notice it when I'm zoomed in 100% on the RAW files.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,789Member
    edited October 2014
    Seems normal enough. Even at ISO400 a little dab of noise reduction can do wonders to an image.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • no1youknowno1youknow Posts: 7Member
    To answer some questions:

    I was shooting the previous evening at 400, and forgot to put it to 64 at the end of day (which I usually do.)

    It was with an older 50mm D lens, but again, I've shot with that lens on other bodies and never noticed anything unusual.

    Regarding noise in a 5 year old camera, I shot for years with my 6 year old D300 and never, not once, thought "hmm, that's a fair bit of noise at 400." Maybe 800 I'd start to notice it. And never on a blue sky. That's why I'm wondering if it's a function of the tiny pixels, or something else possibly faulty.

    So far, there doesn't seem to be a consensus. So I'm not sure what to think. The camera store where I bought is a good hour away, so I can't just pop in, and anyway, it is in their interest to say there is nothing wrong with it.

    I could use in-camera NR, or Nik's Dfine in post, but that's brings me to my original point - I'm surprised I would have to do that with low iso's.

    I'm grateful for all the comments, so please keep them coming.
  • JonMcGuffinJonMcGuffin Posts: 312Member
    This topic gets brought up pretty frequently in regards to the D810 being a "noisy" camera and I'll try to give you the short version of what is going on.

    Because it has such a high MP rate on a FF sensor, what is going on is that when you view the images at 100% on your monitor, you're actually zooming into the image far more than what you would be if you were at 100% on a 12Mp camera. So you're seeing noise in the 36Mp file that you wouldn't see in the 12, or 24Mp file. Does that make sense?

    When you normalize the image, you actually get a very similar noise pattern that what you'd see on say a D600/D610, etc.

    One thing you might do would be to downsample the 36Mp file to something 1/3rd or 1/2 the size and then view it then.
  • PapermanPaperman Posts: 468Member
    Ii is not uncommon to see traces of noise on blue sky shots at any ISO in any camera WHEN VIEWING 1:1 .
  • Bokeh_HunterBokeh_Hunter Posts: 234Member
    The sky will always have "noise" at every ISO.
    •Formerly TTJ•
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,363Moderator
    I have just examined a shot with my D8000E at ISO 400…… I could not detect any "noise" that would be of any concern up to about a 6 foot x 4 foot print. I am wondering if there is some strange adjustment in camera… In any case, maybe a two button reset would be helpful.

    Or, as some of us are approaching as old as dirt, we remember the days of film, and grain. So, even with the noise at ISO 6400 in a D800, which I think is getting objectionable compared to the D4, I have no issue with a basic characteristic of digital photography.

    Somehow Phase One keeps running through my head….

    Another idea might be to look at some of the masters of the film era. Some of the most valued photos in existence have lots of technical issues, but the content is what is considered to be of value.

    Good luck
    Msmoto, mod
  • ThomasHortonThomasHorton Posts: 323Member
    Perhaps the best way to improve the noise of a camera system is to disable the 100% zoom function? :P

    If you look for noise by pixle-peeping, especially as JonMcGuffin and others has written, on a very high MP system, you will find noise. That does not make it a bad picture nor a bad camera.

    Display the picture as you expect the viewer to see it (onscreen or print) and see if you can see any noise. If you can see noise, then you may have a problem. If you don't see noise, you ain't got no problem. :)
    Gear: Camera obscura with an optical device which transmits and refracts light.
  • no1youknowno1youknow Posts: 7Member
    what does a two button reset do, and how is it done? Does it clear out my settings?
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,363Moderator
    On page 193 of the D800 manual a two button reset is described. If you need the manual:
    https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/17722

    And, yes, it will restore all the factory default settings
    Msmoto, mod
  • PhotobugPhotobug Posts: 4,300Member
    what does a two button reset do, and how is it done? Does it clear out my settings?
    In general no1youknow its best to read the manual on today's complex DSLR's...of course with the camera near buy so you can try different settings. There are lots of tips in the manual and suggestions and the manuals are much better than 20 years ago.
    D750 & D7100 | 24-70 F2.8 G AF-S ED, 70-200 F2.8 AF VR, TC-14E III, TC-1.7EII, 35 F2 AF D, 50mm F1.8G, 105mm G AF-S VR | Backup & Wife's Gear: D5500 & Sony HX50V | 18-140 AF-S ED VR DX, 55-300 AF-S G VR DX |
    |SB-800, Amaran Halo LED Ring light | MB-D16 grip| Gitzo GT3541 + RRS BH-55LR, Gitzo GM2942 + Sirui L-10 | RRS gear | Lowepro, ThinkTank, & Hoodman gear | BosStrap | Vello Freewave Plus wireless Remote, Leica Lens Cleaning Cloth |
  • no1youknowno1youknow Posts: 7Member
    I took it into my local camera shop, and they thought something was definitely off with it. We even switched bodies, same lens, same CF card, and it's just noisier.

    Next step is contacting Nikon, I suppose.
  • PhotobugPhotobug Posts: 4,300Member
    Go to the NikonUSA website and find the contact Customer Service and send them the issue and they will probably say fill out the form to send it to Nikon Service center for repair. Your under warranty so no cost to you except shipping to them.
    D750 & D7100 | 24-70 F2.8 G AF-S ED, 70-200 F2.8 AF VR, TC-14E III, TC-1.7EII, 35 F2 AF D, 50mm F1.8G, 105mm G AF-S VR | Backup & Wife's Gear: D5500 & Sony HX50V | 18-140 AF-S ED VR DX, 55-300 AF-S G VR DX |
    |SB-800, Amaran Halo LED Ring light | MB-D16 grip| Gitzo GT3541 + RRS BH-55LR, Gitzo GM2942 + Sirui L-10 | RRS gear | Lowepro, ThinkTank, & Hoodman gear | BosStrap | Vello Freewave Plus wireless Remote, Leica Lens Cleaning Cloth |
  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    I took it into my local camera shop, and they thought something was definitely off with it. We even switched bodies, same lens, same CF card, and it's just noisier.

    Next step is contacting Nikon, I suppose.
    Why didn't the shop replace it for you? How long have you had it?

    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 5,825Moderator
    edited November 2014
    As I understand it, the D800/810 aren't the low light/high ISO kings. That is because the high resolution sensor has very small pixels so less photons hit each pixel. The D4/D4s at 16mp has larger pixels and so more photons hit each one therefore less noise. Don't forget you are seeing the same number of pixels on your PC screen for the D800/810 or the D4/D4s at 1:1 so you aren't comparing eggs with eggs. The 24 mp sensor seems to be a good trade-off between resolution and hi ISO performance. I believe it is the 'fine-ness' of the D800/810 noise due to the high pixel density that fools the eye at normal magnifications, not that the sensor is magical when it comes to noise.

    People here say that the usual ETTR method doesn't work with the D800/810 in fact you should ETTL and recover lots more detail from the shadows - I don't know because I haven't got one but I do know there is no magic that stops noise being exaggerated by ETTL when pushing in post.

    Your shot may have been pushed a fraction in post with subsequent boosting of noise as above? I don't know because I wasn't there, but the noise looks OK to me considering how large that image would be if you could see it all on the wall instead of pixel peeping a fraction of it on your PC.

    Just my 2c!
    Post edited by spraynpray on
    Always learning.
  • no1youknowno1youknow Posts: 7Member
    The store, a large chain in Canada, has a "no returns above $1500" policy. Had I known about this (my fault completely) I would have at least thought about purchasing elsewhere. But I've never had to return a Nikon product before.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    You don't have to return it. Nikon will bring it to factory spec under warranty. Your local shop should at least facilitate the repair process, and at best provide you with a loaner.

    I'm still not convinced you have an actual problem, did you compare to a different D810?
  • no1youknowno1youknow Posts: 7Member
    I did. But briefly. It seemed to me there was a difference. I want to go in again and make the setting identical, and spend some time taking shots in and outside.

    In the down sampled square above, from my image, Pitch-black wrote it was "barely visible", but that seems heavily noisy or pixelated, keeping in mind it's a low iso 400. My 6 year old D300 never showed a blue sky like that, even towards iso 1000 and above.
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    The store, a large chain in Canada, has a "no returns above $1500" policy. Had I known about this (my fault completely) I would have at least thought about purchasing elsewhere. But I've never had to return a Nikon product before.
    Which chain is this? (I am Canadian)
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,789Member
    I did. But briefly. It seemed to me there was a difference. I want to go in again and make the setting identical, and spend some time taking shots in and outside.

    In the down sampled square above, from my image, Pitch-black wrote it was "barely visible", but that seems heavily noisy or pixelated, keeping in mind it's a low iso 400. My 6 year old D300 never showed a blue sky like that, even towards iso 1000 and above.
    You must have had a very special D300 then, because both of the D300's I've used show noise in the sky at ISO 200.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • NalchadzNalchadz Posts: 2Member
    Hello,

    I know this is an older post but I am going through the same thing right now. Did you ever resolve the issue?
  • no1youknowno1youknow Posts: 7Member
    I went down to Nikon Service HQ, and spent time with one of their D810s. Used the same settings, same memory card and several of my lenses. I was there at least an hour if not more. The shots (and noise) were virtually identical. I can only assume it's several build factors, primarily the ultra high sensor resolution.

    Still, I'm glad I did it for peace of mind and don't consider it important anymore. If I have a shot with noticeable noise, at any iso, I use the excellent Nik Dfine.
  • NalchadzNalchadz Posts: 2Member
    Thank you for the response. That puts my mind at ease.
Sign In or Register to comment.