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Snowleopard

I don't care for the Windows 8.x tiles and stuff, so I boot it to the desktop. I do think that Steve Job's was a wizard :-) Now that the wizard is gone, it's not what it use to be.

Ironheart

My experience in running IT departments for large companies (20K+ employees) is that Macs are roughly 3x easier to support than windows. Meaning one tech can effectively support 3x as many mac users as they can windows ones. The OS generally seems more stable, and the frequency of patches for the OS and apps is significantly less.

I know everyone has their pet horror story, but when you have to deal with it in large numbers, the numbers don't lie. @manhattanboy, I'd be curious to know what version of mac OS you are running and what update you were trying to do. A corrupted hard drive can happen any time for a multitude of reasons, so you can hardly say that was the fault of the upgrade... just sayin'

tcole1983

Well I couldn't keep it from a Mac vs PC debate so I will add my input.

I have two apple products. A ipod video that slowly died of a battery issue and an Iphone 6 for work that I constantly want to smash as I can't stand apples unintuitiveness. Why can't I just click and hold on stuff or get it to do what I want? Why is the keyboard on their mobile devices so crappy? It contains the alphabet and to get any of the other characters you have to hit the 2nd button.

As for a real computer...no one ever mentioned $$$$.

A comparable Imac to what I built will cost you at least twice as much...if not two or three times as much.

I paid $1465 for everything. A Mac Mini with less specs and no monitor is $1600 I think.

Again:
23" viewsonic ips led monitor
New Logitech z323 speakers
Asrock z97 oc formula motherboard
I7-4790k cpu
750 Watt 80+ gold power supply
16 gb 1866 (14900) ram
HD7870 2gb graphics card
Blu ray drive
500 GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD
2x 2TB hard drives
You could add another $100 for stuff if you didn't already have some of the software or parts I did.

mikep

z97 is absolutely fine, x99 for a slight performance boost .... but it will cost a few hundred dollars extra. x99 ram is horribly expensive at the moment, especially for 32gb.

ggbutcher

Okay, I'm a long-time linux user, but I also keep a Windows laptop for programming. But I've recently become a Windows 8.1 supporter, and here's how:

I went looking for a cheap tablet to use when I travel to back up photos and do limited post-processing. This one was mentioned on dpreview:

http://www.microcenter.com/product/437499/TW801_Tablet_-_Black

It's a quad core Atom, 2GB memory, 8" display, $120. I was about to trade in a pile of Barnes and Noble gift cards for a Samsung tablet, but this was too good a deal to pass up. Particularly, it has a full-sized USB 3.0 port, which would make it easy to download from SD cards. So, I had my kid pick one up at the Denver store on his way to visit.

It's a bit slower than my Thinkpad X61, but oh so much easier to carry. But, to the topic at hand, I decided to learn the Metro interface so I could use it "properly" as a tablet while traveling. So, Metro is like any other user interface, once you learn the things you need to do most, it works just fine. And, (I still can't believe I'm saying this) IE11 is a really good tablet browser. I bought a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse for desktop mode; between that and Metro, I can do both desktop computing (I'm writing this in a Firefox window in desktop mode in my hotel room), and tablet mode for book reading and such when I'm in transit.

I was so hoping the Ubuntu folks would get the desktop/tablet use case, but Windows 8.1 beat them to it. Say what you will, but it works rather well.

With regard to photo management, it runs all the ingest scripts I wrote for the laptop without modification. I've run Raw Therapee and Lightzone on it; they're a little slow, but would work in a pinch. I'm working on a Windows program that would use dcraw and g'mic to do batch capture processing; I'll post on how that comes out later.

Anyway, I think Windows got the tablet thing right. Your mileage may vary...

kanuck

Are you using big D800 files ggbutcher by any chance? Just curious if you are and how your computer handles the files

tcole1983

Couple more hiccups. Wireless PCI card wasn't working properly and antivirus software was causing the computer to crash.

Bugs worked out and figured out. Running very fast and smooth now. Was well worth the money and effort. Also got a new router going.

funtagraph

Just read about a "rubber ducky" - an USB stick with a CPU inside and a micro-sd card inside. Stick it on a Windows PC and it pretends to be a keyboard and starts sending some scripts in. One for instance does make a screenshot of the current situation, shows that in full screen mode and blocks the other apps away. I easily imagine a dozen users, me included, who would think the PC is broken. Works with Linux, too. Instead of the USB Stick, an Android phone does the same trick. Doesn't work on Mac, because it asks the user if he wants to use the keyboard and before the user clicks Yes, all scripts are blocked.

tcole1983, on feb 2nd or 3rd you posted "got every parts I wanted". 4 days later still hiccups. I won't convert you to use a Mac, not worth the effort, just saying: When I bought the MacBook, everything was updated, user data imported and ready to rock 2 hours later and not a single problem ever since. Even networking with the iMac, I didn't expect it to set up so easily. That's what I pay for, of course.

But I recall the moments I got in touch with a MacIntosh for the first time in life, that was weird. And after that again when my friend got herself her first iMac with OS X 10.1 or 10.2, while I was working on NT 3.5. So much different ways to handle things and today it really feels like holidays coming home from work and do some real work on the Mac. I'm happy not to pay my salary and those of my colleagues for all the time when Windows apps just react super quirky. For old Outlook mails, i.e. we wait one till three minutes to open it. Per Mail, which doesn't mean I found what I was looking for.

Our IT guys are just like you, Mac is THE enemy and a horrible thing to use. Must admit, I never experienced OS X server or a huge network on Apple OS, so I can't talk about that. But if I always need a couple of more seconds to do things the Non-Mac-way - I think per year those little moments would bring me 2 extra paid holidays.

mikep

well, my macbook pro has been very slow since the latest OS update. takes about 2 minutes to boot, 5 minutes to shutdown, there is certainly something not right with it.

i do think mac make the best laptops tho, that touchpad is amazing and i wouldnt ever want to use a laptop that didnt have one again.

but for a desktop, its gotta be a pc. i built an x99 last month and its amazing. i just love the customisability of pcs, and the performance is great; press the power button to fully booted in 20 seconds, and im sure i can speed it up once its all watercooled .. it trounces my macbook.

rmp

Maybe I do not work at it hard enough, but I cannot beat the custom pcs built by places like CyberPower and IBUyPower. They will overclock the CPU, memory and GPUs. About the only way I can speed up their models is to add a RAID 4 type of C drive, say a RevoDrive 350. Of course this supped up speed is not really needed for photo editing, but it is fun to play with.

tcole1983

@funtagraph of course if you buy a mac or well any other brand PC for that matter it should work right out of the box. Obviously there is more that goes into building my own computer. I have to make sure all the parts work together properly and if I want to overclock anything or set it up like I have always had it then that will take additional time as well. I don't mind doing it. I could have gone online and bought a Dell and it would have been all done and I plug it in and get it going in little to no time also.

The wireless card I got wasn't stable in Windows 7...nothing I could do would make it work properly. I blame that on the maker and bad drivers/software.

The antivirus software...not sure what happened there. I have always used AVG (which is free), but for whatever reason the computer didn't like it. The problem there is when I have so much new stuff installed and updating tons of drivers and things from the start is I didn't know what was causing the problems. It took a bit of uninstalling things and re-installing to pinpoint exactly what was causing the problems. When you buy a prebuilt computer all this has been done before you get the computer. Of course that is what you are paying for.

You won't convince me I need a Mac. I don't hate them and I know people like them. People also shoot Canon cameras and I don't hate them or Canon. Just each owns preference.

I like that if something breaks on my computer I can fix it and I know what parts I put in it. Say like Dell you have no idea what components other than the CPU or GPU are actually going into it. Would I feel comfortable taking apart an IMac that is built into a 27'' monitor that I paid tons of money for...probably not.

rmp

DELL does not compare with custom builders CyberPower and IBuyPower. The later two let you choose the components, the configuration, and the overclocking. Then, when something goes bad, or you want to upgrade, you can do it with your choice of components (of course they must match your configuration.) And there is no way Apple will match the speed of a custom job.

tcole1983

@rmp the comments were specific to funtagraph. I know there are custom pc building companies as you mentioned. There is also a premium for them. I just like doing it myself. It isn't terribly hard.

Hammie

I would love to build my own PC, but I really have no clue where to start. My IT knowledge is with Wide Area Networking and some Local Area Networking, but not with PC hardware.

I go back and forth about a desktop versus a laptop. I would love the speed and screen size of a desktop, but love the portability of my laptop.

I really don't think my 13" screen is very beneficial when doing some PP of my photos.

Parke1953

Hammie you can buy a large screen and plug your laptop into it. When you are home if you don't already have a PC or MAC at home.

Hammie

@Parke1953 - I do have a 27" external monitor that I occasionally use. However, I feel my MacBook Pro struggles at times when editing.

ggbutcher

Are you using big D800 files ggbutcher by any chance? Just curious if you are and how your computer handles the files

No, I'm a D7000 guy, and one of the secondary reasons I bought it was, files not so big, 17-20MB. I haven't done any real post-processing on the tablet yet, but I have a business trip coming up with a couple of weekends to burn, so I'll get some photo time then.

For reasons other than speed, I'm interested in command-line post-processing alternatives, e.g., g'mic. But, they're likely to also help with using less-than-turbocharged hardware. I will be playing with Raw Therapee and LightZone, so I'll have some comparative data to consider. I have messed a bit with the GIMP 2.9 unstable, which has 32-bit processing incorporated, and it brings my 2-core laptop to its knees. Haven't tried the 4-core desktop yet, or the 4-core tablet.
4-core-tablet... geesh...

Snowleopard

I don't like the terms "PC" and "Mac" anymore...... It's all Intel or AMD' based hardware and with EFI on most modern motherboards I can boot Unix, Linux, Windows, DOS, and Mac OS off of USB thumb drives on almost any modern computer...

Just don't let Apple know you are booting Mac OS on non-Apple authorized hardware.... they will try and sue you.

Gjesdal

Finally got my new computer (HP Z440 Workstation 6core CPU, 16GB RAM and PCIe SDD for OS)
I've got a 8TB disk to keep my images on and a couple of smaller SSDs I can use in addition.
I want to use one SSD for programs and thinking of putting in one for Scratch disk, but I can't find any information anywhere how large a disk I would need for that..
Will mostly be used for photo editing, but also some video
(looked thru this thread for any information, sorry if it has been answered before)

kanuck

Are you using big D800 files ggbutcher by any chance? Just curious if you are and how your computer handles the files

No, I'm a D7000 guy, and one of the secondary reasons I bought it was, files not so big, 17-20MB. I haven't done any real post-processing on the tablet yet, but I have a business trip coming up with a couple of weekends to burn, so I'll get some photo time then.

For reasons other than speed, I'm interested in command-line post-processing alternatives, e.g., g'mic. But, they're likely to also help with using less-than-turbocharged hardware. I will be playing with Raw Therapee and LightZone, so I'll have some comparative data to consider. I have messed a bit with the GIMP 2.9 unstable, which has 32-bit processing incorporated, and it brings my 2-core laptop to its knees. Haven't tried the 4-core desktop yet, or the 4-core tablet.
4-core-tablet... geesh...

So 16mb files should run pretty smooth even on say 8GB of computer RAM. I remember 24mp running fairly smoothly on my old existing setup even. Once you reach the pig sized 36mp files things crawl to a stand still without a good gaming computer...

ggbutcher

@kanuk, even then, it depends on what else is vying for memory, to include the PP software itself and the particular transforms you're using. For what it's worth, I'd prefer my PP software to not do image ingest/management, as just displaying thumbnails to support that takes memory and processing and I do what I need with just plain old File Explorer in windows. One of the things the Raw Therapee folk tell you to do if using their 32-bit version is to shrink the file management panels to avoid its processing and memory burden.

Okay, here's the taste test, Tablet is a 4-core 1.33Ghz Atom with 2GB and Windows 8.1-32, Laptop is a 2-core 1.8Ghz Duo with 4 GB and Windows 7-64. Software is Raw Therapee 4.2.59, and the image is a 18.1MB NEF. I timed various combinations of simple Exposure (Exp), Unsharp Mask (USM), Richardson-Lucy deconvolution sharpening (RLSharp), and the basic Raw Therapee Denoise (Denoise).

Tablet:

1. Exposure: 30sec
2. Exp + USM: 30sec
3. Exp + RLSharp: 50sec
4. Exp _ RLSharp + Denoise: 1min 15sec

Laptop:

1. Exposure: 16sec
2. Exp + USM: 16sec
3. Exp + RLSharp: 32sec
4. Exp _ RLSharp + Denoise: 52sec

Note all the apples-oranges comparisons; the different OSs complicate things. I did check the perf manager,and all cores were fully utilized in every operation, thank you Raw Therapee.

Due to all the variations, this conjecture is sheer speculation, but I think the biggest discriminator in performance would be the 32-bit vs 64-bit applications. If you're not hitting the upper memory bound in the processing of a single image, adding memory isn't going to help. However, being able to shuttle a 18MB image in 64-bit chunks saves tons of time over moving the same amount of data in 32-bit chunks.

gmckeown

If you are building a PC for photo editing, keep in mind that video cards aimed at gaming do not support wide gamut monitors. Nvidia quadro and firepro both do. It is advised to get a monitor that is 99-100% adobe and sRGB capable AND get an x-rite pro Calibrator. I build PCs for photographers as a hobby and I see so many that focus on the CPU and hard drives and totally ignore the display and graphics card and getting it properly calibrated.

A quadro k2200 is a great card. Very fast. Much more $ than gaming cards, but if you make your money selling your images, its a no brainer. For the CPU, i7 4790k is fantastic and not too expensive. You can also opt for an AMD fx-8350. It can be easily over clocked to 4.4 GHz and will run PS cc very smoothly. Intel chips are faster at single core operations, and have built in video, but not 10 bit or 4k. Forget xeons. You need a server-class motherboard and the benefits just don't justify the costs.

Asus, MSI, asrock and gigabyte are the top choices for boards. Asus has thunderbolt add on card as well, which is cool if you have Mac and windows. Samsung evo ssds are fast as hell. For storage, get some WD re4 drives and put them on a raid 10. They are enterprise class drives with a 5 year warranty and are pretty inexpensive. Seagate drives fail, a lot. 16 GB ram is pretty optimal. More than that is money you can spend elsewhere.

As far as I know, only PS, capture one and Zoner studio support 30bit workflow. Dxo, light room and various others do not, so even if you have the hardware, your still looking at 8bit color.

kanuck

Thank you for your excellent posts gmckeown and ggbutcher lots of great information!

gmckeown, do you think I would be okay with an MSI model # GE60-I7 2PL Cobra Lite I7 4710 HQ, 850 GEForce Graphics card, 16 GB Ram? Only 2.5 GHZ... I wonder about the monitor now. I would also run the OS, Lightroom and CC off a 1 TB Samsung 850 SSD drive. So far I am still using my old piece of crap system, but I have purchased the $600 SSD drive already.....

ggbutcher

@gmckeown, great post; I've been trying to sort out the current component space for just the sort of consideration you point out. One thing I'd offer, the good PP software is starting to use GPU resources, so that should be an additional consideration for selecting graphics card(s)...

Frankly, I'm still not completely clear on how to accommodate both display and processing uses on a single GPU card; anyone who's done that is welcome to pipe up and explain such to an old CoBOL programmer...

heartyfisher

Its automatic .. the GPUs have multiple cores now and the software that knows how to use GPUs know how to address the cores on the GPU.