D810 night photos with HDR showing weird PCB pattern background noise

ilong4u

Got a question. I don't have the D810 but some of its users from the site that I frequent seem to have come across a weird, never-seen-before type of noise... Can't post the pictures since I didn't ask for permission but I figured I can throw a question here... (I've posted the same question on the DPreview as well)

Basically, under certain environment and setting, a PCB pattern noise appears in the background. Here's the usual setting...

1. Body : D810

2. Lens : Sigma 35mm f/1.4 ART, Nikkor 24N, Nikkor 35N (the ones that's I've seen the issue from)

3. Environment : Night, landscape with buildings and sky composing 50:50, light source from the buildings

4. Shutter : 16

5. Exposure : 4 Sec or longer

6. ISO : 64

7. HDR : On

So far, about 4 or 5 people have found the PCB pattern in the background when the photo was taken with the above setting... Interestingly, the PCB patterns are all different. By the way, the pattern is usually not seen unless the curve is edited to bring up the level...

Anyone seen or can reproduce this noise with D810 or other bodies and lens???

Ironheart

Pictures help tons, perhaps a link to the forum where you are discussing? What makes you think it is circuit noise? Do you have the eyepiece closed?

ilong4u

Here's the link to the posting on dpreview...
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55726807

And yes, the eyepiece was closed. and it's not my picture... what do you think might be the cause???

ilong4u

Hmm... Guess no one's interested?

nukuEX2

Why would you want to take HDR photos at night? if I were you I'd not mess with the in-camera HDR and just tweak it in post with Photoshop or Lightroom.

ilong4u

Not sure why you'd want to use HDR at night but apparently some people seem to find it necessary... Plus, a function is provided so that it can be used... What good is HDR function if it can only be used during the day??? Perhaps Nikon should provide a warning in the manual to use the HDR only during the day time???

Paperman

What good is HDR function if it can only be used during the day??? Perhaps Nikon should provide a warning in the manual to use the HDR only during the day time

This like saying " what good is high shutter speeds like 1/2000, 1/8000 when they can only be used during the day ?"

I suggest reviewing why HDR is done in the first place ....

ilong4u

What good is HDR function if it can only be used during the day??? Perhaps Nikon should provide a warning in the manual to use the HDR only during the day time

This like saying " what good is high shutter speeds like 1/2000, 1/8000 when they can only be used during the day ?"

=> This analogy is not really pertinent as you can use high speed shutters under ANY environment. For example, 1/8000 can be used indoors under less than perfect lighting such as sports events and high speed photography and NOT create such weird artifacts...

I suggest reviewing why HDR is done in the first place ....

=> You're confusing the central issue here which is NOT that HDR was used in a situation where it wouldn't be normally used but that a provided function creates an abnormal result.

Ironheart

Only after you import into LR and pump the levels...

spraynpray

I don't have a D810, but as you asked "Anyone seen or can reproduce this noise with D810 or other bodies and lens???", I'll jump in here and say that the settings and pp procedure you have chosen are so ill-matched to the purpose of achieving a usable image, that I seriously doubt that anybody anywhere who has a reasonable understanding of how to use their camera would come across this bizarre result - unless their purpose is to mimic some original poster's settings to see if their camera does gives the same result. If you think that the settings are valid for any purpose other than posting on a forum to see if you can get a rise out of any members, then I suggest you learn a bit about photography and then think again about the scenario you are describing.

heartyfisher

I have played with HDR on my nikon DSLRs .. Its not worth the effort.. I thought it would be nice and simple to get some nice "HDR" shots but the quality is not worth even the minor effort. I get better results from just using ONE simple JPEG and processing it. better yet to just use one Raw or the normal method of multiple photos.

You dont need to use EVERY single function in your camera. evaluate it and see for your self if it meets your needs.. I dont think I have used all the scene modes (.. been wanting to use the flash pulse modes and other things I have not tried. ... sorry for mumbling .. and auto firing of shutter .. and ....)

ilong4u

Thanks for your inputs guys... The general consensus seems to be that under normal situation this particular issue would not surface... and I agree. However, the owners who have experienced the problem (myself excluded) seem to have found it necessary to use the HDR function for night photograph and upon googling, it appears taking night photos using HDR is quite a valid method... (just google night photos with HDR)

Obviously, those who have replied here have not come across a situation like the condition described but SOME people find it necessary to take the pictures using the said conditions.... I can assure you that the problem was found out quite serendipitously...

spraynpray

To be honest, when Googling on the internet you can ask any question you like and get many answers and, if you look hard enough, you can also find the answer you prefer...

Have I shot HDR's at night? Yes. Have I used ISO64/f16/4secs/in-camera jpeg to shoot HDR? No. I find (relevant to the images used in the above link as an example, that one raw file is usually enough if you expose it correctly. On the occasions where VERY bright lights are present on a dark night, a second image several stops under the other may be necessary. Here is an ordinary example taken on a moonless and cloudy night (so very contrasty):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/spraynpray/16719776398/sizes/l



The actual conditions there were that the foreground was so dark I had to use a torch to avoid falling over the various debris.

A D810 would be able to get that result too.

In my opinion, in-camera HDR - like all scene modes - are for those who either don't understand how to get the best out of their equipment (and who think strange results are the cameras fault), or those who understand the limitations of the mode and are able to use them as a short-cut to quickly get good results in well understood conditions. Otherwise the results can be a lottery.

ilong4u

Am I to understand then that your thoughts on the cause for this particular artifact is the combination of the 1) in-body HDR and 2) excessive processing of a JPG file? No internal reflections of the PCB from either the lens or the body itself?

Ironheart

This is not a PCB issue. The lines are different in each photo, and follow some of the elements of the photos, like buildings. You are seeing artifacts of the HDR stitching or masking due to the level push in post processing. This would likely happen on an iPhone HDR as well. I'll try it and see :-)

spraynpray

Those 'PCB designs' don't look like any PCB I've ever designed (and I've designed thousands), that is so much the case that I am generally with Ironheart on his analysis of the cause - although the first image is harder to equate artifacts to building shapes. Get someone to shoot exactly the same setting using raw - if it is a reflection, image format will not change the result.

proudgeek

The truth is you can make virtually any camera, even a great one like the D800/D810, take crappy pictures under the right/wrong conditions. Lord knows I've proven that many times over. Just because a camera can do nighttime in-camera HDR doesn't mean it's what it's optimally designed for.

In general, I'd be wary of in-camera functions like HDR. I don't think they can realistically compete from an IQ standpoint with standalone PP applications.

tcole1983

I don't understand the beating this dead horse...I did Google night hdr pcb and got the dpreview thread that you started there also. Cool...you found a possible extreme and not usual issue when using the in camera hdr function. Not sure what is trying to be achieved really. Not every prebuilt camera function is going to work in every extreme. Has the same issue been seen in daytime hdr? Could it possibly be a case of the in camera program having a hard time stitching very extreme and dark pictures together? Perhaps in those extreme situations doing it the old fashioned way is advisable...I believe it was also mentioned on dpreview that the hdr function requires the use of jpegs which have very limiting range of editing functionality. Pushing stitched jpegs to extreme sides of the slider adjustments could easily produce weird and unwanted issues. Again why do what is being done to encounter the issue in the first place?