Phase One latest Threat to the D810

paulr

With the challenge from Canon and Nikon in the Pixel Race. PhaseOne have brought their latest newest Camera the XF IQ3 Top model is a 80mp model.. Problem is its $48,990 witha standard 80mm lens, They are offering a 35mm and at $6490 and a 120mm at $6490
Should Canon and Nikon be worried

https://luminous-landscape.com/the-new-phase-one-xf-camera-system/

haroldp

no

paulr

Ha Ha, Everything's relative Mr H.

safyre

Must be a slow day.

Gee, $49,000 vs $3,000, yes, I'm sure Nikon is shaking in its boots.

pictureted

Don't forget the larger hard drive for those 80MP files. I also wonder what telephoto I could use for BIF.

Snowleopard

You forget that these camera's serve very different purposes.... I have a D810 and an old Mamiya RZ that is compatible with the IQ3 if I wanted to spend the money on an IQ3, I have been looking at the Phase One (Mamiya) XF with the 80mp back to go Digital Medium Format...., until you have one in your hands and use it for an hour, you won't get it.

Rx4Photo

This is always entertaining. If this forum only consisted of people who could actually afford to spend $50,000 on a camera, I think it'd be pretty quiet around here.

Msmoto

Let's see, BIF....mmmm.....at about 1 FPS or less with the 80 MP back.......I think I will stick with Nikon. It would take me a week to get a few birds even in the frame.....and then probably not in focus.

This is todays's equivalent of the old view camera, IMO, and for action photography, I suspect will not often be used.

WestEndFoto

Back to the original question. "Should Nikon be worried?" The answer is always yes. That is just good business sense. As a CFO of one of Canada's largest property developers, I wake up at night in cold sweats wondering what competitors are doing and going to do, what the market is doing and going to do, you name it. I am paid to worry and if we stop worrying, it is only a matter of time before we are out of business. I don't have any time for people that tell me not to worry because of our land inventory and deep cash reserves or based on their perception that we are better because of (insert false sense of security here). I doubt that it is any different for Nikon executives in the photography market.

Should Nikon be worried about what companies like Leaf, Mamiya, Hasselblad, Pentax, Schneider, Phase 1 etc. are doing in the medium format space. Yes, but not overly. Nikon needs to keep its eye on the ball in the professional market and the consumer market, which both support each other. These companies only need to keep their eye on one ball. Remember that these companies are producing incredibly expensive products for a niche market. They are producing systems with expensive sub-systems - lenses, backs, bodies etc.

And they are still in business?

What will happen when the most expensive component, the back, continues to decline in price? Right now Nikon and Canon are riding high with their superior body technology, as their competitors on the high end cannot compete with a D810 on value. As sensor prices come down and you can get a body for less than $10k (and that market will be to enticing for those companies to ignore), it will be Canon and Nikon that cannot compete on IQ.

Why?

Because in our focus on sensor megapixels, we lose site of what really counts for image quality, which is the lens. All things being equal, lens resolution is positively correlated with format size. In the long run, given producers that are willing to take advantage of the potential resolution a format is capable of delivering (and the more expensive the system, the more they will want to do this), an IPhone will never compete with a Nikon 1, which will never compete with a Micro 4/3rds, which will never compete with APS-C, which will never compete with FX, which will never compete with medium format. The new lenses they brought out can do even better with a hundred megapixel sensor, which is a sign of what is coming.

The top 1% of the market for fashion is already owned by these companies. In the long run, if Nikon does not want to start shedding a few more percent and in some other genres like portrait and landscapes, it will need to produce its own medium format system. If Nikon does that, then Phase 1 will need to worry.

pictureted

Sensor size does matter, but technological advances will allow a small sensor camera or array of cameras to take multiple photos that are digitally merged. Automated panoramic rigs are perhaps an early way of achieving the same thing. Lens development is also changing with new technologies. The Nikon 300PF is an example of a new lens technology.
I'm sure people were trying to make better carbon paper while Xerox was busy in development.
As a former CFO (high tech) I too worried, but it was more about what I didn't know or see coming than my current competitors.

WestEndFoto

How will you get past diffraction with the lenses then? The only thing that beats that is a larger format or aperture. It is why lenses only get so sharp when you stop down. Of course you can open the aperture wider, but then your depth of field becomes limited.

Snowleopard

I guess smaller companies with larger margins have the ability to make changes faster. When Phase One started out, their intention behind the lenses is that they can resolve more than 80mp.

I have read from a number of sources, that their lenses were designed from the ground up to last at least a couple of MP turnovers, so when the 120 and 180mp digital backs come out, the lenses will still give you the appropriate detail where as companies like Nikon and Canon are coming out with 36,50 + mp 35mm camera's and all of a sudden the lenses are "worthless" because they aren't capable of resolving 36, 50, 80mp of detail.

I mean, let's take a look at the main staple lens of a "pro" photographer..... The 70-200 F/2.8. How many "versions" of this lens has Nikon come out with since it was first introduced? Canon is even worse.

So as a Nikon user, if I have a 14-24, 24-70, 70-200, 200-400, 400, and 600mm lens, now I am left with a bill for somewhere around $80,000 to replace all my lenses to new version that support 50mp +

I don't have to do that with Phase One. The lenses were manufactured to spec to resolve 200mp+ (that lens will last a relative life time) over Nikon or Canon lenses.

Why do you think as a NIkon user I haven't bought a 135mm DC...... At some point (relatively soon) there should be a 135 DC 1.8 or 1.4 G/ Nano/ FL, PF.... ABCDEFG for an extra $900 over the original one....

About smaller sensors getting better, yes you are right, smaller sensors are getting better....., but while DX sensors improve, so do FX sensors and Medium format sensors..... So even if it is only marginally better, a same generation FX sensor will always have less noise, better dynamic range, produce nicer colors than the same generation DX sensor.

Why haven't we seen a D400 yet.... (what percentage of potential D400 purchasers just went ahead and moved to a D610?) I don't seem many of them crying about it, infact they are happy with the D610 and use a crop mode if they need it.

WestEndFoto

Snowleopard, I mostly agree with you. However, if you buy a good lens such as the 135 DC 2.0, you will be able to resell it for a very significant portion of the price that you paid for it. That will even apply to the 24-70 2.8G when it is replaced with the E. There will be lots of photographers who will figure their clients will not notice that difference and save a bit of money.

pictureted

How will you get past diffraction with the lenses then? The only thing that beats that is a larger format or aperture. It is why lenses only get so sharp when you stop down. Of course you can open the aperture wider, but then your depth of field becomes limited.

Yes, new technology does have challenges, but over time they can be met. A great deal of effort in lens design is going on in major university and labs. I don't have the answers, but I wouldn't bet against them being found.
Not long ago a 5MP camera took cover photos, now we're wonder whether we need 50 or 80, while I see billboards shot with iPhones.

WestEndFoto

How will you get past diffraction with the lenses then? The only thing that beats that is a larger format or aperture. It is why lenses only get so sharp when you stop down. Of course you can open the aperture wider, but then your depth of field becomes limited.

Yes, new technology does have challenges, but over time they can be met. A great deal of effort in lens design is going on in major university and labs. I don't have the answers, but I wouldn't bet against them being found.
Not long ago a 5MP camera took cover photos, now we're wonder whether we need 50 or 80, while I see billboards shot with iPhones.

Diffraction is not something that a new lens technology can solve. It is like the speed of light, a physical constant that cannot be exceeded. If some engineer comes up with a way of beating diffraction, every physics textbook written in the last 100 years will have to be re-written. Astronomers spending billions on telescopes covering every part of the electromagnetic spectrum are constrained about it. You are just as likely to see warp drive in our lifetime. Possible, but very unlikely.

paulr

It was interesting to see in the Video that the attitude of Phase one was that any future devolpments could be downloaded into this camera and unlike other manufactures this was part of their devolpment thinking. If Canon or Nikon did this I suppose they would be shooting themselves in the foot by effecting new sales of their cameras.
What happened to the Rumour that Nikon were going offer paid download firmware updates for special requirements, Just a rumour?

spraynpray

It seems it was, yes. :-(

pictureted

New tech from Harvard looks like it could result in disruptive changes. The only thing I've learned about technology is never underestimate it., but don't always count on it.

"They also envision flat lenses that could focus an image without aberrations."

http://phys.org/news/2011-09-bizarre-optical-phenomena-defying-laws.html

pictureted

And from the University of Michigan…
"One goal of this research is to create materials that can perform as a lens without needing the curved surfaces found in traditional lenses. It has been predicted that materials with negative refraction can image objects that are significantly smaller than the wavelength of light."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2006-04-team-materials-lightwaves.html#jCp
http://phys.org/news/2006-04-team-materials-lightwaves.html#nRlv

Snowleopard

I was just thinking about this again...... The Phase One XF has an optional waist level view finder....

Nikon needs to wake up..... They did the retro thing with the Df..... I want a waist level view finder for my D810.......

Nikon made a waist level few finder for the Nikon F, F2 and F3......

WestEndFoto

I was just thinking about this again...... The Phase One XF has an optional waist level view finder....

Nikon needs to wake up..... They did the retro thing with the Df..... I want a waist level view finder for my D810.......

Nikon made a waist level few finder for the Nikon F, F2 and F3......

I use this. Works great. Is this what you have in mind?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/357238-USA/Nikon_4752_DR_5_Right_Angle_Viewfinder.html/prm/alsVwDtl

spraynpray

My D750 has a waist level finder...

paulr

On the 28th of this month i have been invited by PhaseOne to test and play with the XF IQ3 at a special event in the UK, I will be taking my D810 and seeing they both take CF memory cards will Be doing a little comparing.
Will let you know how it goes.