What use is Flickr?

WestEndFoto

And then there are comments back and forth between VTC2002 and I. The worst I can "suspect" is that perhaps an effort has not been made to understand my perspective, but somebody could say the same for me. It is possible that we are talking past each other at this point.

I then say:

So what is Nikon Rumours supposed to accomplish? Do we want to be a bunch of angry old white men that learned photography on plastic coated with a gelatin emulsion? That is fine, but there are not many customers down that road.

I can see how that might offend some and I admit the error in my saying that. For a bit of perspective, I am part of an professional association for CFO's. We are mostly (75%) old white men (old being 45 or older) but given our demographics should be less than 50%. We are constantly talking about how to expand our appeal beyond old white men. 45+ does not seem old to us, but from the perspective of a 30 year old potential member or 22 year old photography student, it is. I think that this is an apt analogy because photography clubs look similar. However, I think that I was offside to let my judgement lapse over my frustration with Spraynpray.

I would not use "black men" in my analogy, unless I was black, just like I really am an angry (occasionally) old white man.

My comment about insulting half the internet, while not diplomatic, I still stand behind. "Explore is for the desperate" and there are millions of Flickr users who are therefore desperate.

But that does not mean I dislike Spraynpray. I often find my wife or children frustrate me, but I still love them to death. I feel that he has taken on a very difficult role as moderator - really a thankless task - and when I remember that it moderates my perspective. But I do feel that Nikon Rumours is missing an opportunity to embrace diversity and that Spraynpray's approach is often counterproductive. Social media has found a place in millions of photographer's hearts and I think we should find a way to embrace that.

I often do things in my role that are counterproductive and I have three Controllers reporting to me. I expect them to be brutally honest to me and the two that do it really well get significant annual monetary rewards (a decent 5 figures) and I explicitly say that in their performance reviews. It does not mean I always agree with them and always change my approach, but there are numerous times where I have agree and have changed and my team is the stronger for it. If Spraynpray decides that his approach needs no change, that is his prerogative as moderator and I will find a way to live with it. I regret it if I have caused offence, but I find peace in having given Spraynpray the opportunity to consider this issue by bringing it up.

WestEndFoto

So perhaps we should all agree to disagree and let it lie? As painful as all of this may seem, it didn't kill us and we are probably all a little wiser?

Ironheart

Honestly as a (somewhat) outside observer I haven't seen any comments by any person in this discussion that warrant packing up one's marbles and heading home. I think it has been a worthy deep-dive into the pros and cons of having one's work judged by ones peers (or experts). Photography is a unique intersection of passion, inspiration, perspiration, art and science. Everyone will take feedback or constructive criticism differently, especially considering the place where photography comes from, namely the heart. I close with a quote:

“No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit.”

- Ansel Adams

vtc2002

@Ironheart With all due respect you missed my point, my decision to pick up my marbles and go home is not based solely on this thread but many threads where Jeff (self admission) of being uncompromising. Albert Einstein is attributed with stating that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Having repeated lengthy discussions with Jeff or anyone else that is uncompromising and expecting a different result is a waste of time and insane. I will ask again why Jeff would even start the thread coming in with a uncompromising attitude? He all ready knows he is not going to change is point of view. This is not just my opinion but the unanimous opinion of the students in my class. I agree with your quote from Ansel Adams but aren't you and Jeff dictating how I should perceive, create and produce my thoughts in this thread or whether I stay or leave Nikon Rumors? Ansel Adams sought out advice and was mentored by Cedric Wright, Alfred Stieglitz and many others. The second part of his quote is that we should encourage each other and I (and many others) have tried on many occasions to encourage Jeff and offer him suggestions only to be shot down by his uncompromising attitude. I will not pick up my marbles and go home but see it rather pointless and insane to engage is discussions that lead nowhere as I have better things to do with my time.

PB_PM

Ironheart said:

Honestly as a (somewhat) outside observer I haven't seen any comments by any person in this discussion that warrant packing up one's marbles and heading home. I think it has been a worthy deep-dive into the pros and cons of having one's work judged by ones peers (or experts). Photography is a unique intersection of passion, inspiration, perspiration, art and science. Everyone will take feedback or constructive criticism differently, especially considering the place where photography comes from, namely the heart. I close with a quote:

“No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit.”

- Ansel Adams

I think the issue arises when people don't know the difference between criticism, and constructive criticism. The thing is, both the giver of criticism and the receiver have to be willing to learn for contrastive criticism to be effective. From what I have observed, neither party seems willing to learn from the other, so it's pointless.

vtc2002

@PB_PM I agree with you. I tend to dig my heels in when things get personal and push my point harder. It is something I will work on changing, sometimes it's better to say nothing at all than continue down a pointless path. I will say that I have learned from this thread. I appreciate @Ironheart and your feedback. Thanks, Victor

pictureted

I've been seriously interested in photography for nearly fifty years and can't for the life of me see why anyone in their right mind would want to use film anymore. It's as insane to me as seeing one of my companies' draftsmen NOT using auto cad - an anachronism at the least. Why do old photographer think film is part of photographic training? Completely incomprehensible to me with the quality and availability of digital equipment. Preparing students for the past, or art careers where few, if any can prosper.

I also can't see "photo contests" - photography is some kind of sport? Umpiring in real sports is problematical and they have clear rules, photo judging is just someone's - perhaps - informed opinion. Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Flickr provides me the opportunity to share with friend and family. It also has a massive array of photos to browse for inspiration or entertainment.

If photography is your business, sharing is generous, but potentially foolish if you disclose proprietary techniques or methods. I share because I'm not in it for money.

BabaGanoush

I don't have a Flickr account, but my wife does. Each year, when we go on a trip, we take lots of photos and videos. When we get back, we spend some time editing them and then she posts them to her Flickr account, organizing them and adding a good deal of commentary, in order to share them with our friends and family. We also make our photos and videos available to some of the people we meet on each trip. The pictures serve as mementos of our travels. It's not any more complicated than that. Neither one of us is on Facebook, so Flickr is the way we share our enjoyment of travel with other people.

pictureted

BabaGanoush said:

I don't have a Flickr account, but my wife does. Each year, when we go on a trip, we take lots of photos and videos. When we get back, we spend some time editing them and then she posts them to her Flickr account, organizing them and adding a good deal of commentary, in order to share them with our friends and family. We also make our photos and videos available to some of the people we meet on each trip. The pictures serve as mementos of our travels. It's not any more complicated than that. Neither one of us is on Facebook, so Flickr is the way we share our enjoyment of travel with other people.

A perfect way to use Flickr!

paulr

Pictureted said
If photography is your business, sharing is generous, but potentially foolish if you disclose proprietary techniques or methods. I share because I'm not in it for money.

I think the time when professional photographers kept the technics a closely guarded secret thankfully rarely applies today.

Many Pro's have found teaching and lecturing very lucrative and quite enjoyable.
I think the word "Foolish," is definitely out of context in the 21st century, you only have to look at the internet to see that teaching photography is as popular as photography itself.

The old school days of the peer photographer attitude, would not last five minutes in todays commercial world, The modern Pro Photography not only should be totally conversent with is photography skills but also be an expert in communication and be prepared to inform their clients how they intend to complete the work in a given time scale.

Digital photography has certainly changed attitudes in the professional field.

pictureted

paulr said:

Pictureted said
If photography is your business, sharing is generous, but potentially foolish if you disclose proprietary techniques or methods. I share because I'm not in it for money.

I think the time when professional photographers kept the technics a closely guarded secret thankfully rarely applies today.

Many Pro's have found teaching and lecturing very lucrative and quite enjoyable.
I think the word "Foolish," is definitely out of context in the 21st century, you only have to look at the internet to see that teaching photography is as popular as photography itself.

The old school days of the peer photographer attitude, would not last five minutes in todays commercial world, The modern Pro Photography not only should be totally conversent with is photography skills but also be an expert in communication and be prepared to inform their clients how they intend to complete the work in a given time scale.

Digital photography has certainly changed attitudes in the professional field.

As you say, teaching can be a lucrative part of a pros work. A good friend and pro baby photographer gave free seminars to expectant moms in how to do take better baby pictures. She also showed them a slide show of her photos (shot with pro equipment, multiple strobes in soft boxes and perfect technique) that they could probably never match. The result was that many hired her. She also had a great deal of expertise in hand tinting and would never share those techniques. They took her years to master.

vtc2002

@pictureted I cannot speak to why the Schools require the students to take large format film classes. I would share your concerns it they were requiring 35mm film classes as I do believe digital provides a better solution. I do think there is an advantage when it comes to large and perhaps medium format for photographers to learn on film. There are a number of website that one can Google that list things like increased dynamic range, better image quality, etc being better on film. My students like film for similiar reasons and have fun working with the equipment. I look at it kind of like teaching someone Math. I can give them a calculator and tell them which buttons to push and they will get the right answer but not really understand anything about math. I also think it helps with problem solving by learning the theory behind a subject whether it is math or photography. This trend is not just in Photography. Where I live we have several new stores that have opened that are reverting back to practices that were around years ago. We have a butcher shop that hand cut your meats, freshly grinds your sausage. They butcher the animals on their premises. We a barber shop that uses straight edge razors to give you a shave and to cut hour hair. There is a resurgence of college students that are buying and using old type writers to do their term papers, etc. One of the things that I have seen in teaching and in the corporate world how many young people there are that cannot spell or write a complete sentence. It's like spell checking on their computer has eliminated their need to be able to spell. I think in Photography learning the process on film does provide value. I cannot count how many times someone has looked at one of my photos and said your camera takes great pictures. How many of you have been asked the same question? I once responded to a person that asked me that question that I wonder what pictures my camera is taking right now since it is at home. She had a puzzled look on her face and then started laughing. She and I had a good laugh about it. It's not so much about the equipment as it is about the end results. I have been in workshops and one of the things that makes me cringe is when I hear someone say Oh I think I can fix that in post. I ask them what if you can't how are you going to recreate the image. It's worth the time and effort to get it as good as you can get it on the card or film than traveling back to try to get another shot. Having a good understanding of the techniques and theories will help immensely in the field.

vtc2002

@pictureted I emailed some of my students and I forgot one of the biggest benefits for the student and that is cost. They can get professional quality medium and large format cameras and lenses that match or out perform the DSLR's for a fraction of the cost. You can get a decent used medium format film camera and a lens between $500 and $1000 and large format between $500 and $1500. They all have access to development processing equipment and the cost to print is low for them. If I did not own my film equipment I would agree with you I am not sure if I would go out an but everything that I have now. I probably would still own a large format (especially my 8 x 10 camera) as I do not think there is anything in the market that can produce the quality that I can get from that equipment.

@paulr I agree with you. I had mentors and professionals that shared their knowledge and experience that helped me develop my skills but I had to work a lot harder to get time with them than I do today. I find professionals today are much more willing to share their knowledge and are willing to help others. There are still some that do not and that is fine. To each their own. I enjoy working with my students and find that often I learn more from them than they probably get from me. Just last week they were using one of our high resolution digital cameras and were taking a photo of a 8 x 10 negative, loading the image into Photoshop and with a few steps producing a positive image from the negative. I knew this was possible but had never seen anyone go through the process. The image was remarkable. I like this type of thinking outside the box.

pictureted

vtc2002 - I must say your students are lucky to have you. You have an open mind and pleasant spirit. These discussion so often can devolve into unpleasantness - thanks for your participation.

vtc2002

@pictureted Thank you for the kind words. It is always good to know some one that has as much experience as you have with photography. I may ask for your advice or input in the future.

pictureted

vtc2002 said:

@pictureted Thank you for the kind words. It is always good to know some one that has as much experience as you have with photography. I may ask for your advice or input in the future.

Anytime. It would be my pleasure.

Ironheart

Get a room guys

vtc2002

@spraynpray You can close this thread.

pictureted

Ironheart said:

Get a room guys

Sorry, happily married to the love of my life. The other great loves are art and friendship. (sort of makes cynics want to puke, doesn't it, but heh…)

Ironheart

@vtc2002 it's a joke

spraynpray

Seriously, I do think this thread has served whatever purpose it was intended to and most areas have been covered now so if it doesn't burst into life in the next 24hrs, I'll kill it.

vtc2002

@Ironheart I took it that way. The last comments have been off topic. Those that seek to have their work validated through Flickr will continue and those that use it for storage and sharing will continue. Both sides have been represented and not sure if there is anything else to add. I'd say put her down.

Cassie

Why you guys hate flickr so much? Flickr rocks!

vtc2002

@Cassie No one said they hate Flickr. There is considerable disagreement about the usefulness of certain features. As with anything some people will be satisfied or not with some or all of a particular thing. Nothing in this post would indicate that you stop using Flickr and if you really think it rocks by all means keep using it.

Cassie

OK.I read this thread and there seems to be something emotional and unsaid like my dad and jobs I choose.. Flickr is the main reason I want to upgrade my F100 besides a work reason. The shots are amazing you should look at explore sometime.