Without new Sony Sensor will Nikon FX be 46MP as rumored ?

shubhabrata29

Sony is not going to sell their new answer to other companies like Nikon. So will nikon be able to produce the rumored FX camera soon ?

PB_PM

Nikon will likely just use older generation Sony sensors going forward. The don't have much choice, since Sony has bought up almost all the competition (Samsung and Panasonic aside).

shubhabrata29

PB_PM said:

Nikon will likely just use older generation Sony sensors going forward. The don't have much choice, since Sony has bought up almost all the competition (Samsung and Panasonic aside).

In that case, you mean D820/D850 will be same 36MP with new autofocus of D5, and may be touch/tilt screen. The idea of RGBW sensor is out of scene.

PB_PM

We'll likely see the D810 replacement use the 42mp sensor found on that A7r II, once the A7R III comes out with a higher resolution sensor (48-50MP). Sony wants to win market share, and giving their best tech to competitors isn't the way to do it.

Andrewz

It's hard to imagine that making camera is more profitable than selling sensors. I also remember that Sony spun off it's sensor division from the division that makes devices a couple of years back, another reason this doesn't make much sense.

Sports

I don't believe for one second that Nikon from now on has to use old Sony sensors.
What they mean is that Sony uses custom designed sensors for their own cameras, and we can of course assume that Sony's own camera division is first in line to get the newest and best. These custom designed sensors will NOT be sold to others. So don't expect a Nikon camera with the same 42 Mp sensor with on-sensor phase detection AF, as Sony themselves use now.
But he says nothing, I believe, about not selling OTHER new sensor designs to other customers (like Nikon). Sony's sensor busines is, exactly, a business, and they'll provide new sensors to anyone that'll pay, even sensors that are custom designed for others. They know that if they only sell old sensors, or at a too high price, Nikon will get their sensor elsewhere.
All that being said, I wouldn't be too surprised if Nikon conservatively will stay at 36 Mp, and will be considering a dedicated high-Mp body.

paulr

Was there not a tie up between Nikon and Fuji a few years ago and scene seems to have gone very quite.

Pistnbroke

Other people have made sensors for Nikon ..was it Toshiba ? They have had long enough to sort it out ...maybe its the jolt they need to get moving again. Having said that it does seem that 36/42 MP is the limit for standard style sensors so we may see RGBW if they want to go revolutionary ...

daveznspace

read this thread (especially this user) as it shed's a lot of light on sensors... aka sony just doesn't hand over sensors to nikon or whoever, it's a whole lot bigger than most of us know. The whole thread is a good read.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57049513

Ironheart

@daveznspace I have tried over the years to educate folks about the intricacies of the semi-conductor business, but there are so many layers (pun intended) to the industry, it is hard to fathom how it all works. That thread is a good starting place, and there is so much more to learn/know...

My best analogy so far is that, just because you ask someone to borrow their photocopier to make a copy of a document that you've written, doesn't mean they have the right to use your material for themselves, or anyone else. You maintain the rights and ownership of the material you create, even if you borrowed and quoted other people in your document. And certainly the maker (or owner) of the photocopier has exactly zero rights to it.

Producing an imaging sensor (or any chip) is almost exactly like this. Nikon, "Sony, I'd like to borrow your FAB for a month to make a bunch of chips." Sony "Sure, no prob, it's not being used next month anyway, so have at it. Do you need a full crew to run it, keep it clean, and set up all of your wafers?" Nikon, "That would be awesome, I'll see you then..." And so it goes. Just because Nikon used a sony FAB, and probably even licensed some Sony IP for use in the chip, doesn't make it a Sony design, or a Sony chip. No more than me making a photocopy of my paper makes that Paper owned by Xerox or Ricoh.

Andrewz

So what really is happening is Sony is not selling sensors that they have designed for their own cameras to other companies. But the sensor fab business is probably going on as usual and we shouldn't worry about Nikon. Well as far as where it gets it's sensors at least...

Ironheart

Andrewz said:

So what really is happening is Sony is not selling sensors that they have designed for their own cameras to other companies.

Which has pretty much always been the way it is. "much ado about nothing".

Andrewz said:

But the sensor fab business is probably going on as usual and we shouldn't worry about Nikon. Well as far as where it gets it's sensors at least...

Indubitably. What Canon was doing was re-iterating the way it has always been, and really nothing has changed.

Time, of course, will tell

PB_PM

Pistnbroke said:

Other people have made sensors for Nikon ..was it Toshiba ?

Toshiba sold it's sensor division to Sony last year. Most of the companies Nikon has sourced from, other than Sony, have either shifted to only producing for cell phone cameras, embedded cameras, security cameras. or have been bought by Sony.

Yes, we all know Nikon can use different fabs for custom sensors, but most of the camera sensors they have used in the past (other than the D2H, D3/D4s/D4/D4s/D5/D500) have used off the shelf Sony made and designed sensors to save on R&D. How do we know? Sensor part numbers.

This shift means Nikon will not have that option to use off the shelf sensors from Sony anymore. What does that mean to you and me? More price hikes, because Nikon will have to do all the R&D themselves.

spraynpray

@ Ironheart: I didn't know that. But if the 36.3mp sensor is a Nikon design, how come Sony/Pentax ended up with it?

Ironheart

@spraynpray This is where the analogies start to break down. What did Sony/Pentax end up with? A 36mp array isn't that special. That part of the design was clearly licensed to Nikon by Sony. What's less clear is what parts of the design weren't licensed by sony. There are at least 5 major parts of a modern image sensor. Starting at the top:

Microlens array
Color Filter Array
Pixel Sensor Array
Amplifiers
Analog to Digital Converters

Nikon has patents and other IP in Microlens arrays, so no-doubt those are proprietary Nikon designs, not shared with Sony.

The CFA is also likely proprietary design, due to the unique colors that Nikon uses, and therefore tunes their own "demosiac-er" to understand these specific wavelengths

PSA, this is the least exciting part of the sensor, the actual "photodiode" that converts light into electricity (photons to electrons), most likely licensed "as-is" from Sony in this case

The amplifiers, responsible for gain control and the higher-ISO capabilities, are tuned specifically by Nikon for the best response and calibrated to Nikon's own algorithms. Not licensed

ADC, this step turns a specific electrical value to a number. In a 14-bit world, a number between 0-16,383. This is probably licensed from Sony in this case.

The final "sensor" is a combination of these 5 major parts (and likely many others) and produces a unique image that is the combination of a variety of hardware technology and software algorithms. This is why a Sony 36mp sensor has a different "look" from a Nikon 36mp sensor with the same PSA dimensions.

Then when you take those raw values and further process them you get the final Nikon (or Sony) look. HTH.

spraynpray

It does, thanks.

heartyfisher

Also the on sensor autofocus systems.. sony seems to be keeping those to them selves..

spraynpray

heartyfisher said:

Also the on sensor autofocus systems.. sony seems to be keeping those to them selves..

Grrrr!

PB_PM

Nikon's already got a good on sensor AF technology, from the Nikon 1 system. No need to borrow Sony's inferior junk.

daveznspace

@Ironheart
I'm not going to pretend that I know something that I don't, I just wanted to throw some water on the fire before it got too big.

Was interesting how it brought to light why canons sensors got left behind and that also kinda shows that if canon can't afford newer machines then Sony surely can't hoard everything to themselves, besides it sounds like Sony cameras is nothing more than just another customer to sony sensors and it'd be hard to see them piss off their biggest partner.
Lots to take in but erases some fears at least.

Pistnbroke

Fat photographer today convinced its a Sony RGBW sensor for the new Nikon...???
Sony spent millions developing a new sensor so why only sell it to sony cameras when Nikon has been there sensor buyer for years ...its all $$$$$

donaldejose

It if far too early to conclude Sony won't sell the latest and greatest sensors to Nikon based upon one interview.

Ironheart

Imaging resource has updated the article in question with some ...ahem... "clarifications" of the original position (which wasn't Sony's anyway):

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/03/26/sony-thailand-factory-tour-qa-mapping-out-the-future-of-the-interchangeable

"I'd initially said that I thought there was a time delay involved, between when Sony could use the most advanced sensors in their own cameras vs when competing camera makers had access to the tech, but they informed me that there was no public position to that effect, and particularly no timeline for that sort of thing. - I'd said that other makers got access to the most advanced sensors a year after the Sony camera engineers did, but there appears to be no such official timeline.)
What clearly seems to be the case, though, is that Sony camera
engineers are able to work with Sony's sensor engineers, to develop
unique system architectures that take advantage of their unique
integration capabilities, when creating their own cameras.
It's important to note that this isn't in any way a matter of holding back "higher-quality" sensors to disadvantage competitors.

...

So let's be clear: Sony isn't somehow holding back their "good" sensors for use in their own cameras; it's instead more about taking advantage of the fact that their camera and sensor engineers are able to collaborate with each other, developing new camera architectures that take advantage of their unique integration capabilities. This isn't news, it's just that current advances mean that overall system architecture plays a bigger role than it did in the past."

spraynpray

Yay!