So how many pixels are enough?

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Comments

  • snakebunksnakebunk Posts: 938Member
    edited April 3
    x
    Post edited by snakebunk on
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,353Moderator
    Thanks guys.

    @Pistnbroke - you are wrong on every count this time I am afraid. That shot formed a one-tenth part of my photographic accreditation application which was successful. No photoshop other than normal shadows, dodging, burning and spot-removal.

    @snakebunk - None of those, I am saying that I think 24mp is enough and all I will ever need.

    @donaldejose - no joke, a friend who is very highly accredited told me to spot-remove the airborne flies as the images are viewed by judges at a distance where they may be mistaken as imperfections.

    I will not pay for flickr since they derated it so it only shows low res images. Seriously I was gob-smacked when I saw the flies at 1:1 on my screen. The original must be on a hard-drive in storage until my house is finished. When I find it I'll post it

    I have too many shots on the wall so I limited it to A3 but yes, it does look good.

    An artist contacted me to ask if she could do a line drawing of it - I said yes providing I can see the finished work. I'm flattered that she chose my shot, there were some excellent shots offered to her.
    Always learning.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,190Member
    What is " my photographic accreditation " I have joined MPA .BIPP and RPS as a qualified member and never heard of that expression.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,353Moderator
    edited April 3
    1. the action or process of officially recognizing someone as having a particular status or being qualified to perform a particular activity.
    "the accreditation of professionals"
    2. an acknowledgement of a person's responsibility for or achievement of something.

    So when you write RPS after your name, what do you call that?
    Post edited by spraynpray on
    Always learning.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,190Member
    Well I never heard it called accreditation...I call it a qualification ....but to which society/organisation are we referring to
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,353Moderator
    PAGB when I lived in Kent
    Always learning.
  • DenverShooterDenverShooter Posts: 369Member
    I was NPPA for number of years.

    https://nppa.org
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,437Member
    Most accreditation’s are a joke, including my own CPA designation. Someone who thinks art should be accredited doesn’t understand what art is. Just because a bunch of self important egos decide to assign themselves credibility doesn’t mean they are credible. In Canada, we have CAPA. We make fun of it in our club.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,190Member
    Its sad to hear that qualifications are regarded as a joke. My experience of MPA and BIPP goes back 35 years when almost everyone booking a wedding photographer asked if you were qualified. You could not get insurance unless you were a qualified member. Not every tom dick and harry owned a Hassleblad but with the advent of digital everyone became a photographer. What I learned to produce that panel for membership was still valid 30 years later . I soon realised that the MPA was run by and for its masonic members so I stopped paying and just quoted "qualified with MPA/BIPP" . Well you dont get a doctorate and pay every year to put Phd after your name do you?
    Then the rot set in and membership dropped ..sample panels were shown on the web and the standard was so bad I would not even have pushed the shutter button. So that turned it into a joke..
    Sorry spray I still don't like the stage photo , never liked out of focus backgrounds and the animals at the stags feet don't do it for me . How you got so close with a 200mm I don know you must have access to locations known to very few.
  • flipflip Posts: 153Member
    Joke? So I suppose the GREs, Law Boards, SATs and MBA programs are a joke as well? You demean all those who have worked assiduously to study and pass such tests. At the end of the day, it is simply a way to enforce discipline in individuals in specific areas of study, and to distinguish those who have the capacity and perseverance from those who do not. So what if what you learned is not applicable to your business. Even if you passed your CPA tests without much effort, you are not in a position to denounce it unless you participated in establishing guidelines. Perhaps that should be a future goal for you instead of photography?

    Have you passed series 7/63 tests? What about a law degree?

    Simply because you pack 100 pounds of camera equipment, and whatever else sizable you might be carrying on your person, it does not entitle one to criticize an entire program simply because it comes easy to you.

    When I combine your "photography as art" with this undermining statement, I sense a person who is seeking self worth. Contributing to society is a way to gain it. Expending funds on a Phase One likely will not.

    As to a closeup of Elk, I have rutting male images sized about the same as yours from Rocky Mountain National Park using Kodachrome and a 55mm 2.8 nikkor micro. I could have taken the image from the car, but I carefully got out and got just a bit closer. I used a 400mm lens for head shots. Thrilling experience.

    Flip
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,369Member
    edited April 4
    I passed the bar exam to become a licensed lawyer and unfortunately I do know a few licensed lawyers who are border-line incompetent (to be kind and generous to them). I have no idea how they ever passed that test and I have great sympathy for their clients. I have also seen medical malpractice cases which demonstrated many incompetent doctors somehow get past the testing. I suppose there will always be a few who somehow get past the barriers set up to protect the public. As to art, you cannot even create a valid test for that. I hate some of the awful ugly images posted and recognized as art. At most, you can screen photographers for some level of knowledge of the equipment and lighting. That's about it. Both WEF and Flip are correct in part. The world is very imperfect.

    As to how many pixels are enough, my wife keeps asking me to take photos for her to post on her facebook page so I pulled out my $325 e-bay purchased D700 and have been using that for fun. It is fully adequate for the task at hand. I even "downgrade" it by setting it to medium size and jpeg basic to let me get to a small file size quickly. LOL! She cannot see the difference and neither can her viewers. When the D700 price on e-bay drops to $225 I will purchase another one. It is the quickest way to get to a final small jpeg file for internet use. I will probably be using one as long as I live. But don't tell others or the e-bay price will go up!
    Post edited by donaldejose on
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,437Member
    edited April 4
    flip said:

    Joke? So I suppose the GREs, Law Boards, SATs and MBA programs are a joke as well? You demean all those who have worked assiduously to study and pass such tests. At the end of the day, it is simply a way to enforce discipline in individuals in specific areas of study, and to distinguish those who have the capacity and perseverance from those who do not. So what if what you learned is not applicable to your business. Even if you passed your CPA tests without much effort, you are not in a position to denounce it unless you participated in establishing guidelines. Perhaps that should be a future goal for you instead of photography?

    Have you passed series 7/63 tests? What about a law degree?

    Simply because you pack 100 pounds of camera equipment, and whatever else sizable you might be carrying on your person, it does not entitle one to criticize an entire program simply because it comes easy to you.

    When I combine your "photography as art" with this undermining statement, I sense a person who is seeking self worth. Contributing to society is a way to gain it. Expending funds on a Phase One likely will not.

    As to a closeup of Elk, I have rutting male images sized about the same as yours from Rocky Mountain National Park using Kodachrome and a 55mm 2.8 nikkor micro. I could have taken the image from the car, but I carefully got out and got just a bit closer. I used a 400mm lens for head shots. Thrilling experience.

    Flip

    Sorry I upset you.

    GRE, SATS and IQ tests are not jokes. Those are tests of knowledge or intelligence. Law boards? Often a joke. I spend over a million dollars a year with lawyers and lend more credence to their ability to organize and communicate a complex situation than any degree that they might have and could therefore care less. MBAs are a joke. In my experience an MBA is more often a license for self-entitlement, "I shouldn't fill in that table. I have an MBA. I should have an EA." I can't count how many times I have heard people suggest that since they articled at a big four accounting firm they should be paid more than their colleague that didn't and certainly shouldn't have to report to them." You should see the dear in the headlights look when I remind them that their CFO (me) is a university drop out whos first accounting job was an accounts payable position and never worked for any accounting firm.

    Listen, medical doctors, airline pilots and drivers of personal vehicles? I get that. There should be an exam and license. But "education" is the biggest fraud around and we won't admit it because of the industry and money surrounding it. When I interview a potential employee I want to know how smart they are. Now I can usually figure it out by talking to them, but lots of people relay on what "education" they have. So as a society, we spend enormous sums of money "educating" people, remove them from the workforce at enormous cost in lost wages and the only benefit that I have occasionally noticed is that they "know how to think". There should be a one year post-secondary program for that. If someone can't learn to think in a year, there is no hope. That one year program, their resume and their IQ score would be all I would care about, take 1 minute of the interview time and allow me to spend the other three hours (that is what a Controller has to do to get on my shortlist) figuring out their soft skills.

    Smart successful people that happen to have an accreditation is not evidence of an accreditation's value. In my own field, the profession is dominated by a big union (CPA) that forces people to obtain it as a license to practice. They were successful because they were smart, willing to learn and worked hard, not because of their letters.

    There are exceptions. One I have noticed is some of the shorter EMBA programs or "10 day" workshops that provide certificates. In my view, Harvard does an excellent job at that. And you get useful connections and only have to spend ten grand, not a hundred and fifty.


    So yeah, any sort of "photography accreditation" is a joke. Sorry, but show me your work.

    BTW Spraynpray, like many photos you take, the stag is awesome.

    And Flip, what is with the gear jab? You think that I think I take better pictures because I have good gear. You have not been paying attention if you think that.
    Post edited by WestEndFoto on
  • flipflip Posts: 153Member
    Donaldjose,

    No question each discipline has its various levels of competence, and in dealing with unsecured credit committee attorneys in bankruptcy for example, I can say that they may be the least competent in terms of knowledge, but are frequently the most tenacious and will not take no for an answer. Scavengers, and I knew many.

    There is also an attitude among many in the profession to pad hours with juniors and others while partners get their hours in as well, so success may be construed as income/net worth as opposed to who knows the law better than another. There is also the political side where administrative judges will favor one party over another based on the current tide. I have found that if I look at case study myself, I am frequently more equipped than an attorney in the case, unless they specialize. The law is complex and very nuanced and its always best that the business person recognize the range of possibility and what may turn a case.

    I think my point did not have to do with whether the law boards were a barrier to incompetence, but rather, that is was there to sort through those who at the outset appeared to have the ability to perform. To do well in any profession requires constant education, good relationships with many and to successfully maintain a business (not all attorneys at good at this).

    As I may have mentioned elsewhere, I believe art is in the eye of the buyer/beholder, excluding self-aggrandizement. I think it's not up to the producer but rather if someone is willing to pay for it that makes it art.
    D700 is a great camera and sufficient for many.
    FLIP
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,190Member
    I think the bomb went off ...I dont understand any of the american terminology used but clearly you are all upset...I will retreat to the bunker I built when Trump became president .....
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,369Member
    edited April 4
    LOL Pistnbroke. Hide in your bunker from COVID-19, not Trump.

    Law and medicine boards in the US are not certifications of excellence or skill. They are designed to keep incompetent people from practicing to protect the inexpert public which is unable to judge for themselves. Thus, if you score an F on the licensing exams you fail. If you score a D or C or B or A you all get the same grade - Pass. It is just Pass or Fail. It does not identify the top from the bottom of those who passed the test. In contrast, some people think other types of letters after your name indicate that you are in the top 10% of the people in your field. Perhaps that helps you understand the previous discussions and attitudes. I have been a trial lawyer for more than 40 years and have won more than 90% of all the cases I have ever handled yet the letters after my name, J.D., are the same as some nincompoops I have seen totally incompetent in the courtroom. Some lawyers have the skill to fill out forms but not much else. At least with wedding photographers you can ask to see their prior work and judge for yourself. How can a layman look at a lawyer's prior briefs or a doctor's prior operations and accurately judge for himself their level of skill? That is the problem being discussed.

    Loving the 12 mp sensor for internet use! Quickest from snap to post.
    Post edited by donaldejose on
  • flipflip Posts: 153Member
    A good attorney like a good surgeon is worth their weight in gold (or Nikon/Leica equipment as the case may be). The best are worth every penny (but not a reason not to ask for a professional discount :))

    I loved the output of my D3 but it doesn't produce large prints without interpolation.

    A friend just pointed out that the histograms on some of my landscapes are too dark (too much to the left) which is likely causing the loss of color luminosity with some prints. By default I am prone to underexpose after years of Kodachrome. My bad. Something to work on.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,369Member
    With Kodachrome 25 I liked exposing -0.3 stop.
  • Capt_SpauldingCapt_Spaulding Posts: 546Member
    edited April 4
    Me, too, Donald. K 64 as well. I can't imagine taking photos at ASA 25 in today's world.

    I work in an industry (I use the word intentionally), that places considerable emphasis on the letters behind one's name. Those letters do not mean that the person who precedes them is better, smarter, nicer, braver, more careful or considerate or decent that anyone else. They are simply a rite of passage. I wish those who do have a decent string of them would refrain from using them as a cudgel.

    That said, I have a great respect for the institution of higher education. I have seen it transform the lives of many people, some young, some not.

    My appeal to folks is this. If you really want measure something important, take your camera and a ruler into the bathroom.

    My Trump bunker is only half finished. :(
    Post edited by Capt_Spaulding on
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,190Member
    I had the Covid 19 three weeks ago. Can I come out the bunker if I wear a mask ?
  • flipflip Posts: 153Member
    As requested, some of my somewhat ancient 4x5 images and a few early images with the D800 can be found here:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

    Page numbers Listed below:

    LF Landscapes: 645,648, 678, 718, 730, 731, 774, 803, 819

    Water's Edge: 291, 300, 302, 303, 304, 328, 339, 345, 347, 352, 353, 359

    Flowers: 175

    Leaves: 68

    Safe Haven (35mm digital) 920

    Keep in mind that many of the scans are from the Epson 750 and the software was shall we say difficult for me to get right until I used Epson Scan, so color and saturation are not exact on those.

    … due to my age I got rid of the ruler years ago, now just use the scale and have the annual prostrate check.

    No bunker for me, only a man cave with extra pillows and heating blanket.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,353Moderator
    edited April 4
    Let's get back on track. I wouldn't have posted that image if I'd known it would cause such a fuss. As to who likes it/who doesn't, who cares - I do and it got me 4 points so the judges were ok with it too.

    My point is, I'll never need more resolutions than that and it was 4 stops under exposed to keep the sky in. Great files to be able to do that.
    Post edited by spraynpray on
    Always learning.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,369Member
    Not only pixels spraynpray, your photo is a great testament to the ability of the DX sensor. So much more can be done in DX than many people credit it with.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,369Member
    edited April 5
    His results and technique are Interesting. He uses Nikon equipment in a preliminary step. Can someone identify the specific camera and lens he is using?



    Hyperrealism or you could say "How many pixels are enough in painting?" We could all produce work like these paintings. But, I suppose, art galleries would not gush over our work. Here is one I did years ago. 24 megapixels.

    DON_7301

    This one with the same lens as spraynpray's stag. Again 24 megapixels.

    DON_8240

    You can click through to flickr and pixel peep original size.

    Post edited by donaldejose on
  • snakebunksnakebunk Posts: 938Member
    @spraynpray: But if you couldn't get so close and needed to crop more, maybe 32 mp would have been good?
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,437Member

    LOL Pistnbroke. Hide in your bunker from COVID-19, not Trump.

    Law and medicine boards in the US are not certifications of excellence or skill. They are designed to keep incompetent people from practicing to protect the inexpert public which is unable to judge for themselves. Thus, if you score an F on the licensing exams you fail. If you score a D or C or B or A you all get the same grade - Pass. It is just Pass or Fail. It does not identify the top from the bottom of those who passed the test. In contrast, some people think other types of letters after your name indicate that you are in the top 10% of the people in your field. Perhaps that helps you understand the previous discussions and attitudes. I have been a trial lawyer for more than 40 years and have won more than 90% of all the cases I have ever handled yet the letters after my name, J.D., are the same as some nincompoops I have seen totally incompetent in the courtroom. Some lawyers have the skill to fill out forms but not much else. At least with wedding photographers you can ask to see their prior work and judge for yourself. How can a layman look at a lawyer's prior briefs or a doctor's prior operations and accurately judge for himself their level of skill? That is the problem being discussed.

    Loving the 12 mp sensor for internet use! Quickest from snap to post.

    This is my issue. These certifications are typically a very low bar. Therefore not that useful or even useless. I don't want a C. I want an A, or at least a B if the cost of an error is low. I had a brain tumour about a decade ago and wasn't going to let any doctor deal with it. I found the best doctors and ranked them. Number 1 was in Chicago. Two in Vancouver. Three in LA. The Vancouver doctor was close enough to the Chicago doctor that it didn't matter much and I saved $50k so I went with the Vancouver doctor. I am deaf in one ear, but it could have been much worse. But I am certainly not settling for the one the "system" assigns to me.
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