Nikon's new bodies should include AI like Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra

donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,650Member
edited February 2023 in Nikon Z cameras
Watch for reviews of the soon to be released Samsun Galaxy S23 Ultra. It has a 200mp sensor, pixel binning, Adobe Lightroom photo editing, AI, ability to capture high dynamic range and low light conditions, etc. Imagine what could be done if the this software were to be included in a Nikon Z body. And why not? If 200mp sensors can be useful in cell phone size because of AI how much better would it be to put AI software into a 62 or 100 mp Z8? "Computational photography" (which is what I think this type of technology will be called) must be the future of camera technology and it seems to me if Nikon can get there before Canon or Sony they will have a competitive advantage. Right now there is no reason for Canon or Sony users to switch to Nikon. If Nikon offered the type of technology in the Samsung S23 there would be a good reason to switch. Why are camera manufactures so far behind cell phone companies?
Post edited by donaldejose on

Comments

  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    I think the main reason is volume. They sell many more cell phones than Nikon sells cameras so they are able to spread the cost out over many more units.

    Also cell phone users typically aren't really interested in image fidelity, meaning having an unaltered RAW file available. Whereas ILC users often are - just look at the grousing about the built in lens adjustments in lightroom etc. that can't be disabled.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,650Member
    Yes, but Nikon can buy software from Samsung and adapt it. The software doesn't have to edit from RAW, just edit from jpeg which is what such shooters will be shooting (they can shoot RAW + jpeg and just edit the jpeg in camera and the RAW images on their computer when they get home). Also, add software to e-mail or post the in-camera edited image through your linked cellphone. Basically, give Z body users the option of using their camera like a Samsung S23 with that much larger sensor. A shooter can scroll through their images, pick a few they like, simple edit the jpeg file of that image and shoot it off to post on instagram, etc. None of this would take away for all the things which can be done with Z bodies as we do them now. It would only add a feature bridging the Z body to the cell phone. I know I am a voice crying out in the wilderness because we are all too snobbish about full frame cameras and don't think highly enough about cell phones. But I suggest "computational photography" and quick link to the internet is a feature which would sell well for the first camera company to build it in. It could even be added later with software updates. Someday some company will try it and we will find out.
  • pluka471pluka471 Posts: 1Member
    edited February 2023
    I belive that it's a matter of R&D cost, expertise, and available processing power. Samsung and Apple have tremendous chip development R&D and much of the computational photography is done on custom chipsets. Nikon, and likely no one but Sony, has anything close to that skillset. Nikon is estimated to be using a 12nm process for the Z9 Expeed chip and Apple's current iphone is using a 5nm process - that's a huge computational advantage for Apple. The other issue is use case related - I can't see anyone doing Samsung or Apple type computational photography at multiple frames per second. That said, agreed, it would be great to have some of that capability in a pro level body.
    Post edited by pluka471 on
  • NSXTypeRNSXTypeR Posts: 2,286Member
    Samsung's phones have vastly better processing power than Nikon cameras. I would welcome computational photography on Nikon cameras, the night shot mode can be incredible.

    https://flic.kr/p/PPY6Jn

    This was taken in 2018 on a Pixel 3.
    Nikon D7000/ Nikon D40/ Nikon FM2/ 18-135 AF-S/ 35mm 1.8 AF-S/ 105mm Macro AF-S/ 50mm 1.2 AI-S
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    My Z6 does pretty well at night but I agree support for computational photography would be nice.
  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 696Member
    Snapbridge and Luminar Neo and you are on your way. You even have layers, masks and AI.
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  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 696Member
    @donaldejose I like the idea to shoot RAW + jpeg and just build AI in camera for JPG for quick results in this fast-paced world.

    But my opinion at the moment is that AI that directly improves (change) your photos, definitely does not belong in camera bodies and can be done much better with the RAW material, with the photographer's own style, where he also can use the AI software he wants, there is more than enough on the market right now.

    AI for things like autofocus etc. I would like it in the camera, though.
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  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,650Member
    Yup, but also need to be able to quickly send the edited jpeg quickly to social media through a bluetooth link with your cellphone. We should be able to have a menu item which should have options such as 1. send image to facebook through a linked cellpone or 2 send image to instagram through a linked cellphone or 3 send to other popular social media sites or to our client's e-mail or website. We should be able to take a jpeg image, do a quick edit using the LCD on the back of the camera and then tell our camera to send the edited jpeg image to our cell phone which automatically posts to social media (or website) without us having to use the cellphone ourselves. So we shoot, review in camera, simple edit in camera (like crop) and then use our camera menu to direct where it goes through our linked cellphones. A Nikon mirrorless body should function as seamlessly as the camera already in our cellphone.
  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 696Member
    edited April 2023
    Currently, Snapbridge works very fast, puts your photos on your mobile or tablet within 10 seconds and editing the photo on my tablet is very easy with various Android software, which also includes everything that makes the photo suitable for the various social platforms.

    I would never edit on my camera, because the screen is too small.

    I use the Microsoft Surface Pro 7 with Capture One on it and have no social platform.

    My automated route at the moment is: with the Nikon Z6 with Snapbridge to my mobile (Samsung S21FE), after my photo session the photos go via my data connection (unlimited data €25.- per month) to my Synology server, where they are direct available in the Synology Photo application on my mobile and tablet.

    This device also syncs the photos to my desktop and Surface Pro, where they are in the right folder for Capture One and I can edit them.

    I then also have three backups available.
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  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    Snapbridge is fine when it works but in my experience it often doesn't. For example right now it doesn't - apparently there is some kind of issue with it and the version of iOS I am running. There is an iOS update (to 16.4) available; I'm going to see if that fixes the problem.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,650Member
    editing on the larger screen of a tablet is a good idea. I prefer to edit on a 27 inch monitor! LOL My whole point is that Nikon should offer some camera models which would be attractive to people who currently only use the camera in their cell phones because it is easier to post on social media. Professionals, will always want to edit on larger screens with more robust software. Perhaps convincing people who are currently mostly satisfied with the camera in their cell phone to buy a "real" camera for better quality images is a fools errand as cell phone cameras get better and better with AI technology. Attracting cell phone photographers to a "real" camera would probably require these features be put into an entry level DX sensor model.
  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 696Member
    edited April 2023
    @mhedges I don't know anything about IOS as an Android user, but the following worked for me. Remove Snapbridge from the mobile and reboot. Install again and put the camera in pairing mode, then start Snapbridge and follow the steps on the mobile don't press anything on the camera. The only thing then prompted for the camera is to press OK to confirm that the bluetooth pairing code is good, then it should work.
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  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 696Member
    edited April 2023
    @donaldjose :) Photos are readily available on my mobile and tablet via Snapbridge, which is very convenient.

    I will buy a small DX (new) sensor model with IBIS immediately and totally agree that this will help reach new developments and customers.
    Post edited by Ton14 on
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  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    @Ton14 I have only used Snapbridge with Wifi; I will try it with Bluetooth.
  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 696Member
    edited April 2023
    Ah Mark, I see. The bluetooth connection transfers your photos to your mobile with a maximum of 2mb, JPG resolution 1620 x 1080, which I think is excellent for the internet. At this size, you can even make many edits with your mobile software on it and the photos are better then those from my mobile.

    If the bluetooth connection is running well you can also transfer photos using WiFi in full resolution, so you can then transfer all, or some selected RAW photos to your mobile. For this you then have to have a lot of patience, because this is so slow and really only suitable for doing just a few photos. This has never really run smoothly for me either and during the transfer you cannot use the camera, it does not run in the background, I never use it.

    The problem is that your mobile often quickly connects automatically to your regular WiFi connection because it's set to "connect automatically" and then the local WiFi connection between your phone and Snapbridge drops out. This can be overcome by NOT setting your normal connection to automatic, but it still doesn't run smoothly.

    I copy the RAW photos directly from my CFexpress card to my surface pro or mobile, which is lightning fast.
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  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,650Member
    Baby steps forward. Two AI type features added to the Z8 are the skin smoothing feature and the portrait impression balance feature. Not much coverage of them or how they work. IF they use AI to identify a face (up to three in a frame Nikon says) and then smooths out the skin only and changes the color tone of the skin only without affecting sharp eyelashes or white clothing it could be a very useful feature. However, we don't know at this time if they work only when shooting jpeg images because they are part of the RAW to jpeg in-camera processing or if they are somehow embedded into the the RAW file data. It could be useful. We will have to wait and see once people have a chance to use them.
  • daveznspacedaveznspace Posts: 180Member
    IMO, they should take everything out and model it after a d700, aka actual camera controls. Just losing another art form that took most of us years to get decent images.

    Now any idiot can buy a camera that'll take the picture for them without them knowing squat about how to actually shoot, then they can throw it in an editor and hit a button that edits the pix automatically. Then you get to post it to social media, sit back and revel in your glory as everyone tells you what a great photographer you are.. It's a joke! It's today's version of WordPress which is the most awful trainwreck of code I've ever seen.

    I'm not completely against it but you should have to earn it if you're going for praise. Living next to Yellowstone you meet all these great photographers who you'd thought they'd worked their but off to get a shot only to find out that they were just bored and took a quick drive around the Teton Zoo loop and never left their car, so I guess it's all relevant.

    Although, for some ppl like our parents it can be an amazing thing but for the younglings, it's just another shortcut that teaches them to be lazy lil punks and not have to actually learn a skill, it's quite pathetic IMO. Our kids are going up stupid, lazy, ignorant, and fat and we wonder why.

    Remember just a few short years ago that HDR was supposed to die and photos had to be taken perfectly pristine (ex: you couldn't remove a twig in front of a bird), now the pix aren't even real.

    just my pissy rant for the morning lol
  • NSXTypeRNSXTypeR Posts: 2,286Member
    Your rant sounds like what landscape painters were complaining about after people started taking landscape photos with glass plates. It's far too easy to take a snapshot of Yosemite Valley! I took a few months to paint that last portrait! Go tell that to Ansel Adams. I gave up stressing about what others think. People get all bent out of shape caring about what others think about. News flash, people care very little about what others think, and if that's what you chase after that's fine, but another person's opinion highly unlikely to make a ginormous difference in your life. Those likes on Instagram or SnapChat took 1 second to click on and the person who clicked on that like won't be thought about your work not even 10 minutes or 30 years down the line.
    Nikon D7000/ Nikon D40/ Nikon FM2/ 18-135 AF-S/ 35mm 1.8 AF-S/ 105mm Macro AF-S/ 50mm 1.2 AI-S
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,650Member
    Both of you are correct. However, "progress" and "technology" cannot be stopped. Many artforms will disappear. Photography has been so "devalued" by in-camera computers (and will be further devalued by AI developments) that we now just have to take photographs for our own satisfaction and forget about ever being recognized by others. It is like playing music in your own home for your own enjoyment; not to perform for others and expect them to show their appreciation to you. I am afraid the days of "the great photographers" are over.
  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 696Member
    Totally agree and it is accelerating.
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  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,545Moderator
    Don't worry guys, remember how digital replaced vinyl and digital photography replaced film? Now vinyl and film are coming back. It is like comparing a painting to a photograph to me.

    Perhaps the difference is best described by considering a person using a camera as an artisan?

    AI is BS in my opinion and should not be equated to photography in any way.

    Always learning.
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    I think the vinyl resurgence is here to stay but I'm not sure about film. The main concern there is supply; my understanding is that it's movie film that is still keeping this stuff in production. Once that gets below a certain level then all film manufacture will likely cease. Film is extremely difficult to make, especially good color film, and requires a lot of volume and expensive ingredients. Records can be made in a garage by one or two guys.
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