Adobe Creative Suite Going Subscription Based

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Comments

  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    Well the latest versions are pretty good at the GPU passthrough, you need to install the tools. Besides photoshop isn't really a graphics intensive program, like a video game, or 3-D rendering. Mostly PS seems to be a CPU burner.
  • dissentdissent Posts: 1,314Member
    - Ian . . . [D7000, D7100; Nikon glass: 35 f1.8, 85 f1.8, 70-300 VR, 105 f2.8 VR, 12-24 f4; 16-85 VR, 300 f4D, 14E-II TC, SB-400, SB-700 . . . and still plenty of ignorance]
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    edited May 2013
    Hi all,
    Ironheart said:
    @John, have you ever heard of VMware? You could create a vm with CS6 and win7 or win8 and run the environment for roughly the next 100 years without a worry about the underlying hardware.
    @Ironheart - I'd like to know what vitamins supplements you think John is taking - his hundred year use of any software/hardware combination would be quite interesting. ;-)

    Adobe has been planing the move to the Cloud for some time and it has had some detractors.

    Some of you are painting too bright a future for what might happen, too. CC's cost of $20 a month is 'first year, get it while you can' introductory price.

    Support for non CC products will likely be shutoff in a very few years, possibly next year or 2015.

    If CC starts in June, Lightroom for Cloud can't be far behind.

    For those who make very little of their work, I see little benefit of paying over $60 a month - the actual cost, next year (or even later this year) when the introductory price is over.

    There are numerous options that would work fair well for imaging. Corel's Paint Shop Pro and Cyberlink Photo Director are two that are great and inexpensive.

    My best,

    Mike

    Post edited by MikeGunter on
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    Hi all,

    Kelby's take isn't unbiased, he did admit to being on the Adobe advisory board and he is a shill for Adobe and they are an advertiser at his website and for his training vids, so, I mean, I would at least be informed about what he has to say about the shift.

    I wouldn't be to influenced by any positive things he has to say about the Scarlet Letter. There are some factual misstatements in his comments, too.

    Adobe has upgraded software within a release many, many times with new features - practically every version.

    The low price is an introductory price and will go up later this year - that's pretty plain, so it's rather odd to make out the prices quoted to be a ordinary prices.

    It's also clear that how it will work is unclear and intentionally unclear; that seems bad in itself, or Kelby is just a crapy salesman.

    Adobe will change its mind if enough people convince the company that it's a bad and sales fail.

    My best,

    Mike
  • hawkdl2hawkdl2 Posts: 56Member
    I'm not sure this is as bad as some would like to believe - for most users, amateur and pro. Price aside, since for pros the costs is similar, the new system will allow Adobe to roll out improvements and new features at anytime without having to wait for a new version launch. For Pros, this could be a significant advantage. The notion that Adobe will somehow be able to lock you out of your files if you retire or no longer want to pay the fee seem to me to be a bit irrational. LR and PSE are not part of CC and there is no indication Adobe plans to move them to a subscription basis. That means unless you need the very powerful features of PS, you will be able to buy and open your files and continue to work on them as extensively as "most" amateurs currently do with LR and PSE. There may be a small population of amateurs that use PS features not in PSE, but I suspect that is not a large percentage of non-Pro PS owners.

  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,476Member
    edited May 2013
    I kind of find this discussion funny. I recall warning people that this would happen a while ago and was shot down for doing so. Now the same people that shot my comments down are now blasting Adobe for this move.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • safyresafyre Posts: 113Member
    edited May 2013
    Wow, you would think that with all the brainpower they have at Adobe, some contingent would’ve stood up and say, “Hey, how about let’s NOT change our business model that’s been working for us for the past 20+ years, and piss off our customer base in the process!” This has to be the dumbest idea I’ve heard of since the Netflix debacle and I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up in a similar outcome.

    Anyways, a lot has already been said about this matter, but I’d figure I’d link an FAQ that Dpreview just had with Winston Hendrickson, Adobe’s VP of creative solutions, and his rather arrogant and condescending responses to some questions.
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/08/Adobe-photoshop-cc

    Here’s some of his notable points without the political correctness BS.

    1. We KNEW people would be angry by this change, but we decided to do it anyway. In fact, we thought even more people would by pissed off by it.
    2. This change will do absolutely NOTHING to stop piracy. You can crack our software using the exact same methods as before.
    3. The real reason for this was because despite making 4B dollars of revenue and 1B dollars of profit, frankly, we’re just too lazy and cheap to make two versions of our suite.
    4. The general public has caught on that our last 3 versions lacked innovation and were pretty much garbage for the upgrade price, so by changing our business model, we can recoup some of the profits that we would’ve made had customers actually bought our upgrades.
    5. If you’re a photographer, stop complaining about the price of Photoshop, and use Lightroom instead.
    6. We’re not gonna charge subscriptions for Lightroom as of now (not until we have more people hooked onto it!)
    7. Overall, we think this new business model is going to be much better for our customers, as they will always have the latest software. For example, all of the Photoshop users can now have access to our upcoming Anti-shake filter, which only costs $20/month for the rest of their LIFE.

    Really Adobe? April 1st was over a month ago. Smh.
    Post edited by safyre on
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    The fact is that the non-pro/non-academic users of PS are less than 10% of the PS revenue today.. In fact I'd bet that for more than 90% of all PS users it is a business or academic expense. If you consider CS as a whole, probably 95%. So even if they all leave, Adobe still has a lock on the market, if only half do, they win! Oh, and all of the non-pro users probably generate 75% of the calls to tech support, which is an very expensive part of the operation. Double word score!
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    Does anyone here actually pay for software or is everyone here been freeloading for years/decades?
    If you are one who is using a version that is 2 releases back, student version, or a pirated version - hate to say it, but no one feels sorry for you, nor do you have an argument or a voice against Adobe's new pricing. For those who seem to be against it, I'm guessing you haven't actually look at prices.

    Photoshop - $600 - PS Extended - $900
    Adobe Acrobat XI - $300
    Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 - $735
    After Effects CS6 - $840
    Creative Suite 6 Design & Web Premium Software - $1,700

    19.99 x 12(yr) = $239.88
    29.99 x 12(yr) = $359.88
    49.99 x 12(yr) = $599.88
    69.99 x 12(yr) = $839.88 (By the way, this is the average cell phone plan cost (minus taxes) in the US.)

    If you figure they update their software every 2 years and divide that into a monthly cost of ownership -
    CS = $1,700/24=$70/mth / PS = $600/24 = $25/mth

    So the cost is basically the same assuming you upgrade with each software update which we should, but just don't. Personally I would rather spread the expenditure out than outlay the full amount.

    Logistically for Adobe, it makes great sense on many levels. They will have to only support a single version - that is huge for them, and a boon for users as efforts will be focused only on the current version and bringing newer features, updated functionality of existing functions and not focused split on much older versions.

    I have used Corel Paintshop pro and Photoshop elements and both are very good options for most hobbyists and even advanced amateurs. Corel's Paintshop Pro is actually very good - there are a only a few options that are not available that Photoshop has - but are almost always included in the next version. I am signed up for their updates and they send out 25-50% off regularly and you can get it for under $100 all the time. The only drawback is that almost all tutorials are for Photoshop.
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,476Member
    edited May 2013
    never mind.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • BabaGanoushBabaGanoush Posts: 252Member
    Ironheart said:
    @John, have you ever heard of VMware? You could create a vm with CS6 and win7 or win8 and run the environment for roughly the next 100 years without a worry about the underlying hardware.

    If you keep your old machine that long, whether it's CS6 or VMWare Fusion running a vm, you can keep running your old software. However, if you eventually buy a new machine you may find that your VM software needs to be updated to a version that will work with your new OS and new hardware. So, either way, you will be at the mercy of one of the two companies, Adobe or VMWare, to update their software so it runs on your new machine. The question is, Which company do you trust more?

    As to what the future holds for Adobe's subscription plan, I wouldn't plan on it remaining static; expect the terms of the EULA to change with time, probably in ways that will favor Adobe rather than its customers. In other words, if you are uncomfortable being in the clutches of Adobe now, how will you feel when they have you ensnared in their spider's web a couple of years down the road? As I understand the current terms of the subscription plan, the software you download to your machine will continue to work even if you eventually terminate your subscription plan. Is that correct? Or is it like the licensing agreement for Windows 7, which apparently requires you to install a periodic download from Microsoft in order to keep your copy of Windows running or else it ceases to work. Call that approach "renting" or call it "extortion" but, whatever you label it, if the Adobe scheme does not work that way now, the odds are probably high they'll be moving in that direction in the future.
  • BabaGanoushBabaGanoush Posts: 252Member
    In terms of ranking the dumbest business decisions of all time, do you think those who conceived Adobe's CC subscription model have ever heard of "New Coke" and know what a fiasco that was for Coca-Cola?
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    TTJ, complaining to other people not to have looked at prices and suspecting in general the use of pirated software falls back on your own post - you just compared new prices to the costs of monthly software rentals. It would have been fairer to compare also "traditional" update costs.

    Also, Adobe is cashing more for localized versions. So, the stupid customers in Europe and Asia helping them to improve their sometimes poorly designed apps should also cash them back. I don't expect you to change you English-centered perspective, of course. That was more for others.

    I can't complain about update prices or cloud price models, because I already found good alternatives to Adobe's overpriced products. And at the same time, I'm a mostly happy user of company-paid Adobe suites. After years and years of learning i can do with 'em what I need for the job. But it's not that I can't think of better ways to use some functions. Poor design, it just shines because others are worse. To be fair, there are lots of artists who learnt better to work with or around those flaws and use PS as an outstanding tool for their work.

    On my private machine, Adobe will never make it to see my harddrive littered with their products. There are lots of other options for my low level requirements at home.

    Some questions I didn't read so far:

    What happens, if one of those cloud versions needs investment in faster hardware? Or another version of the OS? The customer would be happy to use the last working version, but he needs to stay in the update queue, so he needs to upgrade the hardware as well.

    Then, after changing hardware, one needs to run all other apps to update their licenses - is Adobe paying the customer for this additonal efforts?

    What happens, if I want to update Mac OS - but Adobe hasn't done their homework, as usual. They are always late...

    What real innovations can be expected in the future? It's not true, there haven't been improvements in the past by the last versions, but the amount of people benefitting from them decreased constantly. From now on, this happens on the cost of all customers.

    Nobody is forced to use Adobe.
  • I am anti cloud. When I don't get a choice, I am super anti cloud.
    Photoshop ends for me over..., let's say 4 years.
    A very good chance that there is a good alternative at that time.
    Those who say it can't be done, should not interrupt those doing it!
  • kampakampa Posts: 8Member
    Hi all, I just wanted to drop my 2 cents on this issue.

    I understand the feelings about this change on Adobe philosophy and I think they should keep the door open for people to buy the full license of their products. Having said that, the Creative Cloud have been a fantastic tool for my work. I work on multimedia and design for web, mobile, desktop applications and print. I use Photoshop, Illustrator and Dreamweaver on a daily basis, those three are always open on my computer. Then I use often inDesign, Audition, Lightroom, Premiere, Acrobat and Captivate (not part of CC). I also get to use Typekit (been using it for a long time) and the Creative Cloud 20Gig of cloud storage. I haven't started using Behance yet but I will be giving it a shot soon.

    Another thing is that I can use the software in two machines, my personal Mac and a PC from work. All of that for $30/ month (soon to change for $50/month).

    For me it is worth it, I never had the chance of working with the latest versions of this great software and this is just awesome for me. The problem that I see here is that their new model favors people like me that uses most of the software they offer and in multiple computers versus people using one or two pieces of software every once in a while.

    I am thinking that they are trying to get the professional users to join the Creative Cloud and get them hooked to that model keeping constant revenue and focusing the Elements line to casual users. If this is the case, I believe we need an Elements version of some of the software to give non pros a choice (Lightroom, Dreamweaver).

    Just my thoughts.
  • BrucePhotographyBrucePhotography Posts: 40Member
    well, lets wait and see what its like first

    either way i dont mind, the old photoshops are pretty awesome and its not like an update is required. im sure the old versions will be useful and relevant for many years

    i am sure there will be another option out before cs6 becomes obsolete, so it will never be creative cloud or nothing
    As long as you NEVER buy another new camera. Unless Adobe agrees to supply new Camera Raw definitions to new cameras for at least CS6, the current cameras will be it.
    I am anti cloud. When I don't get a choice, I am super anti cloud.
    Photoshop ends for me over..., let's say 4 years.
    A very good chance that there is a good alternative at that time.
    I guess it is lucky that I now shoot Nikon so I have the great D800 and D800E. Maybe now IS a good time to stop buying new cameras since Photoshop won't be there to support new cameras. Hey I really like my Nikon gear and the future will only bring better and better options for new glass. It is also good that I have two - so one can be in the shop when necessary. I glad they support the D7100. Boy that was close.

  • BesoBeso Posts: 464Member
    I am anti cloud. When I don't get a choice, I am super anti cloud.
    Photoshop ends for me over..., let's say 4 years.
    A very good chance that there is a good alternative at that time.
    Adobe is following an industry trend in shifting to "cloud-based" software and subscription services. It is a much more efficient business model, enhances the "captive clientele" relationship, and provides greater control. For the subscribers there are a few benefits. The most apparent is software is always the latest version. The biggest downsides are loss of actual product in possession (although that is debatable) and loss of control over costs (other than terminating the subscription). I used the less robust Photoshop elements prior to CS6 because for me Photoshop is both complex and geared to altering photographs where Lightroom, Capture NX2 and others are more geared to developing photographs. But, after buying Lightroom 4, Adobe offered the CS6 "full meal deal" for only $250 so I didn't pass it up.

    I don't like the "cloud computing" concept from a user perspective but totally understand it from a business perspective. It will take some serious thinking and assessment of use of CS prior to making a commitment to engage in this subscription service. The price implications of product purchase (actually use licensing) versus subscription service may be comparable today but there is no guarantee that is how it will be in the future. Ultimately the "market" will dictate direction as it always does.

    Occasionally a decent image ...
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    I think where Adobe messed up is misusing the catch-phrase "Cloud." There is nothing "cloud" about the software or change at all. It is just downloading the software, and it has to validate itself every once in awhile through the internet. It is no different than iTunes, Windows, or the hoards of other professional software that requires this. There is ZERO "cloud" computing or in other words, working off of a web page. It seems what most are disgruntled about is having to pay for the software or not being able to skip a generation or two releases.

    I like what kampa brought up and I am in the same boat - there are software titles I need maybe 3-4 times a year and to spend $900 more for them has never made since. For under $40 month I can basically rent them for when I need it, and dump it when I don't instead of paying $1,700 for a bunch of software that I don't use 11 months out of the year.
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • kampakampa Posts: 8Member
    Totally agree with TaoTeJared, calling it Creative Cloud, Adobe got everyone confused.
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    Hi all,

    I've an ACE(Adobe Certified Expert) and my business has been a ACTP(Adobe Certified Training Provider) here.

    While biting the hand that has put food on the table is rude, they have been rude to their minions (and fortunately or not, I am rearranging our classroom to a large family room, and so I'm less concerned - I'm getting older and less inclined and interested in business :-)

    @Ironheart - I'm joking about the '100 years' of course.

    @safyre - I'm more frustrated with Adobe than you'll will ever, ever know and I know VPs on down personally. Ask my wife. (It's like a bad joke - "Don't get me started...") Arrogance, hubris, avarice, gluttony, and vainglory - a few more and they would be deadly, but those sins are enough to be unpleasant.

    The company buys other companies' technology, patches it into their suite. What I know... I should write a book, but I'm bound by NDA.

    Premiere Elements and Photoshop Elements are not very good products. They are resource hogs and realign CODECs in puzzling ways - I would be very dubious of using of them.

    To all, unless you actually have statistics in you pocket, I wouldn't use them. 95% of the people who quote numbers who don't have a basis for them, make their argument weaker when they use them. :-)

    Oops.

    Someone said earlier that Adobe did this by doing their homework - I'm sure they did. This isn't a whim.

    I use to work for Ulead, a company that is now owned by Corel and software that is within Paintshop Pro and VideoStudio and bits and pieces of others. I know that software and have used versions of it for over many years. It's pretty good

    What will I do?

    Well, I'll try the CC - I'm still eligible for the CC as a ACTP (There is the love-hate thing), but I'll make a list of the things I'll miss about CS6 and see if I can find a suitable replacement elsewhere and go there.

    While Kelby mentioned in his 'interview' that Lightroom isn't going to the 'Cloud', I can bet anyone here that in 18 months, it will be there, too.

    Be sure to JPEG your images and be prepared to live without Photoshop.

    My best,

    Mike
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    @MikeGunter I'll admit I was exaggerating a bit on the 100 year thing :-) @BabaGanoush A Virtual Machine (vm) is capable of being "played" or run on a variety of hypervisors, so while VMware might not be in business 100 years from now, Microsoft, RedHat or Citrix may be so you can run the vm on their platform just as easily. The key is you never have to upgrade the OS or the App ever again if you don't want to, due to the encapsulation of these in the vm construct. This is a hedge against anyone trying to "obsolete" the editing environment for your older photos, not necessarily a go-forward strategty.

    Someone once said, "There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics"

    @MikeGunter, My assertion that 95% of all CS (not just PS) users are either academic or pro (meaning they expense the cost of their software to a business) has got to be well within the realm of reality as very few people spend $1300 of their own $$ on a piece of software on a whim. Of course my assertion is unprovable because Adobe or anyone else has no way of knowing who expenses their software and who doesn't.

    Perhaps a poll is in order ;)
  • turnthedarncranksturnthedarncranks Posts: 116Member
    At least one competitor has already launched its first broadside in trying to steal PS customers who aren't interested in going to Creative Cloud. Mac only, but Pixelmator just added a bunch of new features. Details here: http://lifehacker.com/pixelmator-image-editor-updates-with-100-new-features-a-498645893
  • sidewayssideways Posts: 54Member
    I'm not in favour of cloud based services for anything important - so someone trying to push me that way by removing my choice would get short shrift. The fastest way to kill this will just be for everyone not to upgrade. If we simply stop buying the upgrades for 12 months, management bonuses will tank, shareholders will get antsy after 2 bad quarters, the idiot in marketing who thought this up will get fired and company will fall into line no problem.
    Don't take any crap folks !
  • The way to make profit on software is a monthly fee and this gives the company many ways to control it. These Adobe monthly fees has nothing to do with the value of the software and absolutely nothing with customers, this last thing concerns me the most.

    The only thing you can do is follow. As sideways wrote, don't buy it.

    But other companies will jump in the gap soon and quick, no problem.

    I worked by IBM for 25 years, the cloud was called mainframe at that time, your PC will become just a terminal, you don't know where your files are and you only can do what they put on that mainframe. Nobody has a good workflow for this environment and you will be very limited.

    This is turning the clock 40 years back.
    Those who say it can't be done, should not interrupt those doing it!
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