To Tilt or not to Tilt

WestEndFoto

WestEndFoto When I was at the Photographic Show {Ex Focus} I went to the Schneider stand to look at the new lens 28PCTS, They were very reluctant to show me the lens, i explained I had the 90 version so the rep went to a SAFE and brought me the lens , The whole time two security guards stood next to me, Apparently this was the only 28mm version in Europe, Thats why I said if you could get One regardless of cost. I quizzed them on other future productions but no mention of a 20mm PC lens, It took them 5 years to perfect the 28mm version.

That doesn't surprise me. If I get the Nikon and really like it and Schneider comes out with a wider lens, I can imagine how that might become tempting. However, it will be a while. My first "serious" purchase will be the 200 f/2 when Nikon upgrades it.

Spy_Black

I wouldn't say stacking is necessarily a replacement for PC. However it is an option. I freelance in a studio where a MF tilt-shift camera is used with a Phase One back, so yes I know what you can get with such an arrangement.

I doubt you could get my particular macros that I shot, at least not without detail loss from diffraction. I certainly don't share this thought that you lose resolution with stacking, you actually gain resolution because you are shooting at optimum aperture.

I'll agree that some landscape environments may not work if there is a lot of wind, but generally subtle movement differences are negligible.

It can also be argued the the PC will "always" be a superior solution, because as you said it is more expensive and harder to use. Stacking can be used with every single lens that you own, so if you have a 14 mm for instance, you can take a landscape shot that you simply can't take with any existing PC lens.

So they each have their pros and cons. I'm not against PC lenses per se, but for my product shots stacking is a no-brainer. I also think for some landscape work stacking is a better choice than a PC lens.

Killerbob, the particular stacking program I use is called Zerene Stacker, but there are a multitude of them to work with. Most of them typically have 30-day trials so you can use them and decide if they will be of use for you, and which ones you prefer to work with. Try them out and see if they'll work for you. Photoshop also has stacking capability, but I have found it to be not that effective.

Msmoto

Close up requiring tilt lens: 24mm f/3.5 PC E Nikkor, D4 f/32, 1/160



N Scale engine, I think the easy way to do this is using a tilt/shift lens as focus stacking is much more time consuming, or at least that is what I think....LOL

WestEndFoto

Yes, there are certainly pros and cons of PC vs stacking. I have some thinking to do here.

One question on stacking software. If you have Photoshop, is it worth investing in an entirely different stacking program? Are we talking "a little better" or "a lot better"?

paulr

WestEndFoto If you look at some of the insect shots taken on Photomacrography.net, they all seem to use stacking programs with incredible results, so yes, they are better than photoshop.

WestEndFoto

Interesting website and some great shots on there Paulr.

danhowl

I bought the 85 PCE for both the PC to correct lines for the occasional still-life for my brother's artisan furniture business but also for special effect focus control on fashion shoots. A little of the focus effect goes a long way, so I try to use it very selectively, but sometimes it is a great effect to pull out of the bag.

I have found it to be useful also as a very sharp macro (even without using the perspective controls). I have also found it effective shooting some small artifacts for a book project. It rivals the sharpness my Zeiss Otus lenses though not a rugged.

I think that if I did more architectural exterior or landscape work, I would consider getting the 45 and the 28. That is just not what I am shooting currently.

paulr

Tilt and Shift lenses are superb as a standard lens,The image circle diameter of normal lenses is only slightly larger than the diagonal of the taking format.PC/TS lenses have a much larger image circle so detail in the corners is the same as the centre without any deterioration in quality. The Schneider PS/TC allows an extra 12mm above the normal image circle in all directions , hence the cost.

Spy_Black

@WestEndPhoto: Stacking in Photoshop is not that consistent. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Check out the various dedicated stackers and see which you feel comfortable with.

As I said, there are pros and cons to each way. The train shot is a nice example, but doesn't have an extreme front-to-back angle that my particular product shot had. It's also larger and further back than my product close-up, which less than 4 inches in length. Of course it also requires the purchase of a PC lens. :-) My product shot was made with my existing 105mm f/4 Micro Nikkor that I've owned for years.

I won't disagree that there will certainly be situations where a PC lens will be a better choice however.

Msmoto

Just FYI, the train was an N scale engine and the engine itself was about 4" long.

Spy_Black

I'd be curious if you could shoot something roughly that 4-inch length at the angle and FOV as the product shot I did. The train shot is still larger because you have a second car, tracks, and a less obtuse angle. I'd be curious to see what it would look like, because I'm also wondering about wide-angle distortion of a subject at your focal length, which was partly the reason I used a 105mm Micro instead of my 55mm Micro on the product shot. I sill have that product sample, and I just measured it at 3.75 inches tip to tip.

heartyfisher

Tilt and Shift lenses are superb as a standard lens,The image circle diameter of normal lenses is only slightly larger than the diagonal of the taking format.PC/TS lenses have a much larger image circle so detail in the corners is the same as the centre without any deterioration in quality. The Schneider PS/TC allows an extra 12mm above the normal image circle in all directions , hence the cost.

Just like using FX lenses on DX cameras :-)

Msmoto

For product shots on full frame I would use the PC-E Micro NIKKOR 85mm f/2.8D. Here is my thinking...

On 4"x5" format a typical product shot was with a 210mm lens. This is about1.3 times the diagonal of the format. On full frame using a 4:5 format, the diagonal is about 38.3mm. If shooting fairly small product a slightly longer lens may be desired and the 85mm would give a focal length to diagonal ratio of about 2.22.

The 85mm Nikkor goes to about 1:2 as well so it can get in close.

The caveat is my thinking may be flawed...LOL :-))

WestEndFoto

Seems reasonable to me.

Spy_Black

As long as it's in a production budget, using various PC lenses would be handy, however if you're needing a 24mm PC for X shot, 85mm PC for Y shot,and perhaps a 45mm PC for shot Z, that's an over $6000 investment. Assuming you can get a return on investment I'd say that's a go. Otherwise the practical approach is to stack when needed using existing optics.

paulr

Perhaps a cheaper way would be to buy DxO Viewpoint It seriously better than PCC perspective control and a bit cheaper than $6000.00.

http://www.dxo.com/us/photography/photo-software/dxo-viewpoint

Ironheart

Or how about a bellows? The PB-6 bellows goes for about $200 used.

Spy_Black

You can only use something like a PB-6 that way with a bellows Nikkor, or possibly some enlarger lenses, not sure. A PB-4 is a probably a better option if you have the lenses.

Spy_Black

The DxO software isn't going to give you the same perspective options as you can get with tilt and shift. There are some perspectives you can't get even with stacking that you can get with tilt and shift.

paulr

Your right Spy-Black but it's hell of a lot cheaper and would cover the majority of perspective control situations I own both a PC/TS lens and the software,unless you use a PC/TS lens on a regular basis these lenses are not easy to use and normally require a tripod, The Dx0 viewpoint 2 software has 8 points you can change and takes seconds to use. I have the PB-6 bellows and the Nikon 105 bellows lens but would not consider them to control perspective movements, but use them for controlling DOF.
The advantage of a PC/TS lens is that it helps deal with Scheimpflug principle in creating a better DOF by the so called wedge effect.


This image was taken with a GoPro 3+ wide angle lens No PP except DxO Viewpoint 2

Spy_Black

It's certainly a nice app to have if you need it often. I think I can do the same in Photoshop tho. You loose a fair amount of detail and, needless to say, field of view doing stuff like this however.

DaveyJ

I used to use tilt and shifts on view cameras all the time, both on 8x10 and 4x5. Then I got a Nikon lens listed on this site and tried that. Comparing it to the images I was getting on say a 20-35 Nikkor. Color, sharpness, etc. I was not at all impressed. I tried this for almost two years until I pulled the plug. Sorry, I am just not a believer in this avenue. To me it was a dead end street. Compared to the results with Schneider lens on view cameras I just fail to see the point.

DaveyJ

The reason I mention that brand with Nikon mount is that is what I tried in 35mm tilt shift. As to view camera lens I had a $50,000 fleet. Been there, done that. No thanks!