The 1.2 Crop The fantasy and The facts

2

Comments

  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    Maybe if the body of such an "EX" would have some features others don't, it could become a success for Nikon. But I doubt that, as Nikon is very conservative. Otherwise I can't see any advantages one could not get by cropping FX in post.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,482Moderator
    If those features were any good, they would be on the DX and FX now.
    Always learning.
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    I could imagine, some of us would get needy, if the bottom plate is Arca-Swiss and a side plate, too :) And the battery grip would include one or two fn buttons.. plus a touchscreen over AMOLED display, GPS and WLAN inside.

    But Nikon engineers won't be that suicidal, to get killed of an army of DX and FX users 
    8-X
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,482Moderator
    I sure hope not! [-X
    Always learning.
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,182Member
    edited January 2013
    Nope have not given up on this bone.. just needed to gnaw on it a bit more :-)

    There are too may arguments posed for me to rebut in one post .. it would just be too long..
    so let me just tackle one for now. I will get to the others later :-)

    Sensor : ok sony and aptiva(sp?) are not the only sensor makers.. I had a look around and there are some amazing techs out there. one is especially interesting. I have been anticipating this sensor since I heard about the patent a few years ago. The panchromatic (or “clear”) pixels has been implemented! And in a format that will suit our EX camera. ie its an aps-h sized sensor. due to the panchromatic pixels it will allow 1-2 stops High ISO advantage over current bayer systems. Its a 16MP sensor so we can probably expect a native 25600 high iso capability in this EX sensor. the sensor is rated at 8 FPS. Not only that the sensor has offset micro lenses so that a F1.4 lens is really an F1.4 lens! (Ohh .. i am drooling ... wipes his chin ..)
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,182Member
    Nikon already struggles with DX lenses, so adding one more format to the lineup ain't gonna make it easier for all users. As much as I like the 1.2 crop on FX cameras, I'm much less of a supporter of an entirely new form factor - EX. Just don't get who will benefit from it? 
    I am not suggesting that there should be a new range or EX lenses.. just the ability to use the DX lenses on the EX bodies.
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    edited January 2013
    And there is Sigma with it's Foveon, hardly shaking on CaNikons thrones. Great resolution and poor high ISO. What lets you believe, this superduper new sensor is a) affordable and b) has no small or big issues? Bayer sensors have a tremendous amount of developer man power on their patterns, tons of money spent on them already and this new sensor is sponsored by who?

    I'm afraid i't with car engines. Better recipes for more environmental friendly drives are available since long time, but we still see the majority of diesel and gasoline.
    Post edited by JJ_SO on
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,182Member
    edited January 2013
    Market demand for such a camera.. .. lets try and speculate on the specification of the theoretical EX camera.

    Lets assume that the D7200 will be even more advanced than the D7000 ie. even closer to the D300S thus resulting in a merger of the D90 and D300 lines into the D7XXX lines. This has been suggested several times in various threads on NRF (old and new) and other forums. This D7200 will be the High MP camera that we all expect at 24MP.

    If this happens there is an obvious gap above this range which can be filed with the D800 or this EX camera. From my previous post there is no technical reason for not having a high ISO 16 MP 8 FPS EX sensor camera with a D800/D300S style body. surely there is a market for that beast. we may even get 10- 12 FPS in DX mode.

    so Lets see.. we have
    * a D300/D800 style body.
    * EX sensor aps-H 1.3 crop mode
    * Offset microlenses. F1.4 and F1.2 lenses are really F1.4/F1.2 !! yay !
    * panchromatic pixels
    * 16 MP native EX.
    * 12.5 MP DX crop mode
    * 13.5 MP 4:5 crop mode
    * native 8FPS
    * DX crop mode 10-12 FPS
    * ISO 100-25000 native - boost to 104000
    * Flash sync at 1/300
    * other bits like 2 sd cards, Wifi, user specified Crop mode with a 200 or 320 matrix, for the guys who wants a square crop or even a round crop.
    * what else ... hmm will add to this list if i think of any more..
    * oh yeah .. all the video and sound bits :-)

    WHERE CAN I BUY THIS!!
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,182Member
    edited January 2013
    And there is Sigma with it's Foveon, hardly shaking on CaNikons thrones. Great resolution and poor high ISO. What lets you believe, this superduper new sensor is a) affordable and b) has no small or big issues? Bayer sensors have a tremendous amount of developer man power on their patterns, tons of money spent on them already and this new sensor is sponsored by who?

    I'm afraid i't with car engines. Better recipes for more environmental friendly drives are available since long time, but we still see the majority of diesel and gasoline.
    I was sceptical about the faveon too.. I did speculate that its High iso would be weak. Its still an interesting sensor.

    Nikon actually has a patent for a sensor that has all the advantages of the faveon and none of the disadvantages .. but its unlikely that its available yet.

    There is the fuji sensors with a 6x6 matrix( instead of a 2x2 bayer matrix.) that does not need an anti alaising filter. awesome performance and I was hoping that nikon would pick that up.. but they dont make them in APS-H format.

    Which comes to the "super duper" sensor by Truesence : check them out.. http://www.truesenseimaging.com/technologies/truesense-sparse-color-filter-pattern
    I am not saying there wont be some gotchas. (I can think of at least 1 :-) ) what I am saying is the tech is there and possible for a nikon EX camera.
    PS: Truesense also has a 28MP FF sensor ! with the same pixel size of the APS-H !


    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • adamzadamz Posts: 842Moderator
    @JJ_SO - the biggest problem with Fuji sensor is that there's really no software on the market apart from Fuji that reads its RAW files. You can have the best sensor on the market but You have to have software that will get the max of it. Hopefully, ppl at Fuji will learn this, as I really like the new X100.
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    @adamz: Since I was not talking about Fuji sensors, you probably meant heartyfisher? But what you talk about, goes as well for the Foveon - the Sigma software is, hmmm, usable, as well as a Commodore 64 can also be called "usable".
  • adamzadamz Posts: 842Moderator
    @JJ_SO - indeed I was thinking of hearty :)... as for commodore 64, back in the 80/90s it was a great box :D
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    and back in the 90s, the Sigma software would also look and process very "modern".
  • JJ_SOJJ_SO Posts: 1,158Member
    heartyfisher: truesense itself doesn't see still and videocams as their targets. I mean, it's no piece of cake to make all DAM software capable to use the data of their sensor.
  • ChromiumPrimeChromiumPrime Posts: 84Member
    edited January 2013
    I never understood the reasoning behind telling others that something is never going to happen. I mean if it does end up not happening then that's that but if it does happen then even better. Either way no one gets hurt but up until then people can have their dreams and wishes, right? :)

    Say what you want but up to a century ago who would have thought that we'd ever take to the skies? Or send a man to walk on the moon? Or chat with someone half way across the world? Or, or, or... I mean that stuff used to be the mark of crazy people.

    Less than a year ago, I was involved in a somewhat heated debate in this very forum (old platform of course) about the possibility of another FX camera to sit lower than the D800. I was arguing for the FX camera and had various forum members tell me why Nikon would "never" release such a camera for this or that reason and I would tell them why it didn't matter and was still a possibility... less than a week since the debate started (and while still ongoing), NR got the first confirmed rumor of D600 specs :O

    My point of all this is never dismiss an idea that you have no way of knowing it's never going to happen... or better yet, just don't dismiss ideas ;)
    Post edited by ChromiumPrime on
    Way too much gear & way too few photos :-O
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,493Member
    True, each idea has possibilities, but you can also look at a situation logically and be reasonable about the possibilities.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,182Member
    edited January 2013

    ...

    Less than a year ago, I was involved in a somewhat heated debate in this very forum (old platform of course) about the possibility of another FX camera to sit lower than the D800. I was arguing for the FX camera and had various forum members tell me why Nikon would "never" release such a camera for this or that reason and I would tell them why it didn't matter and was still a possibility... less than a week since the debate started (and while still ongoing), NR got the first confirmed rumor of D600 specs :O

    My point of all this is never dismiss an idea that you have no way of knowing it's never going to happen... or better yet, just don't dismiss ideas ;)
    Heartyfisher said 3 years ago on the old forum.
    On the other hand I also think that they will release FX format cameras that are in the Advanced consumer D90 range soon as well... (wonder what they will call it? ( FX70? D70F?)
    Guess it was called the D600 :-) My "out there dreams" come true once in a while :-)

    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,482Moderator
    edited January 2013
    Market demand for such a camera.. .. lets try and speculate on the specification of the theoretical EX camera.

    Lets assume that the D7200 will be even more advanced than the D7000 ie. even closer to the D300S thus resulting in a merger of the D90 and D300 lines into the D7XXX lines. This has been suggested several times in various threads on NRF (old and new) and other forums. This D7200 will be the High MP camera that we all expect at 24MP.

    If this happens there is an obvious gap above this range which can be filed with the D800 or this EX camera. From my previous post there is no technical reason for not having a high ISO 16 MP 8 FPS EX sensor camera with a D800/D300S style body. surely there is a market for that beast. we may even get 10- 12 FPS in DX mode.

    so Lets see.. we have
    * a D300/D800 style body.
    * EX sensor aps-H 1.3 crop mode
    * Offset microlenses. F1.4 and F1.2 lenses are really F1.4/F1.2 !! yay !
    * panchromatic pixels
    * 16 MP native EX.
    * 12.5 MP DX crop mode
    * 13.5 MP 4:5 crop mode
    * native 8FPS
    * DX crop mode 10-12 FPS
    * ISO 100-25000 native - boost to 104000
    * Flash sync at 1/300
    * other bits like 2 sd cards, Wifi, user specified Crop mode with a 200 or 320 matrix, for the guys who wants a square crop or even a round crop.
    * what else ... hmm will add to this list if i think of any more..
    * oh yeah .. all the video and sound bits :-)

    WHERE CAN I BUY THIS!!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not a snowflakes chance in hell. If I understood you correctly Hearty:

    A big barrier even between the next big thing being mirrorless FX or DX is the obsolescence of the existing lenses so why would Nikon make a different range of lenses just for a 1.3 crop ? :-/
    Post edited by spraynpray on
    Always learning.
  • ChromiumPrimeChromiumPrime Posts: 84Member
    edited January 2013
    @PB_PM Ideas don't always have to be reasonable or logical but even so logic in this case is very subjective :)

    Heartyfisher said 3 years ago on the old forum.
    On the other hand I also think that they will release FX format cameras that are in the Advanced consumer D90 range soon as well... (wonder what they will call it? ( FX70? D70F?)
    Guess it was called the D600 :-) My "out there dreams" come true once in a while :-)
    Keep the dream alive :D

    @spraynpray heartyfisher is suggesting same range of current FX and DX lens would also mount and work on the 1.2 sensor.
    Post edited by ChromiumPrime on
    Way too much gear & way too few photos :-O
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,482Moderator
    " Offset microlenses. F1.4 and F1.2 lenses are really F1.4/F1.2 !! yay !"

    What are these Chromium Pine? Never heard of them - am I missing something?
    Always learning.
  • ChromiumPrimeChromiumPrime Posts: 84Member
    edited January 2013
    Double post.
    Post edited by ChromiumPrime on
    Way too much gear & way too few photos :-O
  • ChromiumPrimeChromiumPrime Posts: 84Member
    edited January 2013
    From an earlier post:

    Not only that the sensor has offset micro lenses so that a F1.4 lens is really an F1.4 lens! (Ohh .. i am drooling ... wipes his chin ..)
    Microlens is a type of sensor technology that enhances their light gathering abilities. It's not a new range of lenses though.

    Also it's Chromium Prime :)
    Post edited by ChromiumPrime on
    Way too much gear & way too few photos :-O
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,482Moderator
    Right. Thanks. In that case I will downgrade my out of hand rejection of the possibility from snowflake in hell to just extremely doubtful. :-j
    Always learning.
  • ChromiumPrimeChromiumPrime Posts: 84Member
    LOL - I wonder if a possibility in quantum physics does actually exist for the formation of snowflakes in hell :-B
    Way too much gear & way too few photos :-O
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,182Member
    edited January 2013
    All sensors have micro lenses its just that the micro lenses are directly in front of the sensor pixel.
    The problem is that at the edge of the sensor, the the light does not come from directly in front but at an angle. so the micro lenses focuses the light into a region that is not light sensitive. Thus light is wasted. This happens most with the larger aperture lenses as light from the opposite edge of a large aperture misses the light sensitive parts. Tests have shown that you start loosing light from F2 down. so at F1.8 you are getting maybe F1.85 at F1.4 you are getting about F1.6 at F1.2 you are getting about F1.55.. I don't remember the actual figures(i have a feeling its actually worse that what I have shown) but that is the principle of it. to mitigate this all camera manufacturers artificially boosts the ISO from F1.8 down. so if you use a F1.4 lens at full aperture and set your iso to 100 the camera "cheats" and sets it to 160.

    With the "offset" micro lense technology the microlenses at the edges of the sensor are offset slightly so that light from the edges of the apertures is still focused onto the light sensitive parts. so you wont loose light at larger apertures. Thus an F1.4 aperture is still registered as a 1.4 amount of light. so no need to cheat anymore !
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

Sign In or Register to comment.