The 1.2 Crop The fantasy and The facts

heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,172Member
edited January 2013 in Nikon DSLR cameras

The thread from the old forum -
http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=34715
http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=23258

Hah ! Its back ! and you thought you laid it to rest !  I have been distracted by the new forum.. but its back stronger then before !

I have decided to call the 1.2 crop sensor the EX format, as in CX -> DX -> EX -> FX

I still think there is a place for this format.
To summarise some points for those not interested to read the threads from the old forum...
1) I speculated that several curious factor regarding the delay of the D400 and other unrelated curious facts seem to point to the possibility of a 1.2crop mode sensor camera. 
2) I further speculated that if there were a EX sensor there could be 2 implementation of it
2.1) A D7000/D600 style advanced amateur unit - projected price of about $1400
2.2) A D300/D800 style EX pro unit - Projected price of about $2000 which gives the opton for a DX user for the same price to go FX(D600) or EX Pro body.

I also suggested that if the EX camera had a 4:5 crop mode then the diagonal length of that mode will fit in the image circle of all dx lenses
Thus the EX  camera body could use all the DX lenses in DX crop mode or 4:5 crop mode. Plus many DX lenses could be used in full EX mode with only minor degradation to IQ in the corners (either vignette or blur).  A key lens for this EX format would be the 12-24 Nikkor DX which should work well as it already works for FX from 16-24mm

There was suggestions that the Canon 1.3 format was dropped by canon so it was a bad idea and nikon should not pick it up. I investigated that and concluded that the Canon cameras had 3 main weaknesses and that this proposed EX Nikon camera will not have those weaknesses but will have all its strengths.

I listed some strengths of this format. i will reiterate them here and add to it ...
* It will be able to use all DX lenses - the canon 1.3 camera could not use the 1.6 format lenses. thus it did not have a good ultra wide solution. We will have that solution in the 12-24 dx lens.
* the 1.2 crop sensor will use the sweet spot of the FF lenses. Several older FX lenses with weak IQ in the corners can now be used without this penalty. the old 70-200 comes to mind. a whole set of old FX glass now will produce exceptional IQ on the EX format camera.
* Faster frame rate than its equivalent FX camera.
* Faster Flash sync speed than FX cameras
* the larger sensor will improve the perceived sharpness of DX lenses that can cover the EX 1.2 crop.

* a 25MP 1.2 crop sensor has the same pixel size as the D800. but Higher FPS, Smaller files, Faster Flash Sync speed.
* Prices below $1500 for advanced amateur version or below $2000. for the pro body. The Canon 1.3 was about 3500-4000.

My conclusion from the above is that we should consider the EX camera as a super DX camera rather than a cut down FX camera. It would thus be targeted at the people now who are waiting for a D300S replacement, and I would be one of those who would jump on this in a heart beat!
Post edited by heartyfisher on
Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

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Comments

  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,396Moderator
    edited January 2013
    Interesting...the DX lenses would work with the 1.2 crop mode in a 4:5 format.  Maybe, what Nikon or someone needs to think about is a 27mm x 34mm sensor which would give a 4:5 format, yet more image area.  With the new mirrorless camera this is a very real possibility.  And, all the FX lenses would cover...
    Post edited by Msmoto on
    Msmoto, mod
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,027Moderator
    edited January 2013
    Hmmm, this could be the photography worlds equivalent to a motor-sailing yacht in the yachting world - neither a boat that sails well nor motors well!

    Seriously - do you think there is a need or market for another format so close to the others?  Canon don't seem to think so now.
    Post edited by spraynpray on
    Always learning.
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,396Moderator
    Well, Hasselblad has a new APS-C mirrorless, the Lunar....uses a Sony 24mp sensor, and costs USD $6500.  Uses Sony lenses.....but, you can get it in a variety of wood and carbon options....

    I was only thinking out loud.  Once we drop the mirror in the DSLR camera, the possibilities are widened.  

    I think the ultimate body will be a mirrorless FX.  I doubt if Nikon will produce a D5 as a DSLR, but instead it will be a sophisticated mirrorless for the professional world.  Both Canon and Nikon know that once the follow focus technical problems are fully resolved, the elimination of the mirror will produce a sports camera which will be of interest to many.  And, the ability to have a larger sensor which would not require new lenses may have some appeal.   I am thinking primarily in portraits.
    Msmoto, mod
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,027Moderator
    I think there are two drivers for going mirrorless - sports speed is only one - the other is manufacturing complexity and warranty cost.  The whole oil on sensor fiasco goes away or is at least diminished when there is nothing or little to lubricate.
    Always learning.
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,396Moderator
    edited January 2013
    ;spraynpray   

    For sure....getting rid of the dirt/oil issue would make a lot of folks happy.

    Post edited by Msmoto on
    Msmoto, mod
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,965Member
    Having no mirror makes it even easier for dirt to reach the sensor when changing lenses, so I don't see how that would be helpful.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • ChromiumPrimeChromiumPrime Posts: 84Member
    edited January 2013
    Hmm... I think I did say before (on the old forum) that the more time that passes the less I think Nikon would release a D7200 and a D400 but instead combine the two into one line. However, I can completely see Nikon releasing the D400 as a 1.2 Crop instead. At the very least, it would entice a good number of Canon shooters to switch.
    Post edited by ChromiumPrime on
    Way too much gear & way too few photos :-O
  • Steven_BSteven_B Posts: 3Member
    As I was reading the first line, I was laughing. Then, I read on. You actually have good points lined up.
    By knowing that Nikon likes to flood us with more choices than we like to deal with, your idea totally makes sense. 

  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,027Moderator
    Having no mirror makes it even easier for dirt to reach the sensor when changing lenses, so I don't see how that would be helpful.
    I don't think the mirror has any appreciable effect on dirt getting to the sensor PB, I think the dirt sticks to the sensor due to a static charge that builds up.  If it is in there then the flapping mirror and pumping zoom will waft it around so I doubt mirror/mirrorless will be different in that way unless they develop another way to stop it happening.
    Always learning.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,965Member
    edited January 2013
    @spraynpray What I mean is, when you are changing lenses the mirror creates a physical barrier between the sensor and the outside world, a mirrorless camera has no such barrier. It's easier to blow dust off the mirror than the sensor.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,172Member
    Hmm... I think I did say before (on the old forum) that the more time that passes the less I think Nikon would release a D7200 and a D400 but instead combine the two into one line. However, I can completely see Nikon releasing the D400 as a 1.2 Crop instead. At the very least, it would entice a good number of Canon shooters to switch.
    Good point about the canon 1.3 shooters !
    and the delay in releasing the D300S replacement is what started my train of thought too .. :-)
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,172Member
    edited January 2013
    Hmmm, this could be the photography worlds equivalent to a motor-sailing yacht in the yachting world - neither a boat that sails well nor motors well!

    Seriously - do you think there is a need or market for another format so close to the others?  Canon don't seem to think so now.
    My argument againt that is that the 3 main weaknesses of the Canon 1.3 format is mitigated by the EX sensor camera,
    1) No ultrawide. - we have the 12-24 dx and 10.5 fisheye
    2) Did not work with their 1.6 format lenses - we have the DX lenses in DX crop mode and 4:5 cropmode
    3) High cost - the proposed EX cameras semipro and pro bodies are about half the price of the canon 1.3 format cameras.
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,172Member
    Interesting...the DX lenses would work with the 1.2 crop mode in a 4:5 format.  Maybe, what Nikon or someone needs to think about is a 27mm x 34mm sensor which would give a 4:5 format, yet more image area.  With the new mirrorless camera this is a very real possibility.  And, all the FX lenses would cover...
    do you mean a super FX size sensor like a a 0.8 crop sensor ? that could be cool !
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,172Member
    edited January 2013
    Hmmm, this could be the photography worlds equivalent to a motor-sailing yacht in the yachting world - neither a boat that sails well nor motors well!

    Seriously - do you think there is a need or market for another format so close to the others?  Canon don't seem to think so now.
     I have been thinking of a design for a yacht that would be faster than a normal sailing yacht and which you could power as well :-) .. one day i may build it :-)
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,965Member
    edited January 2013
    I still highly doubt Nikon will use a 1.2x sensor, for the practical reasons I noted in the previous thread, on the old forum, but I will reiterate them anyway.

    1. Lack of market demand. Besides these threads, I haven't talked to anyone who has shown any interest in such camera (Nikon or Canon users). Most of the Canon shooters I know who have the 1Ds MKIV (1.2x crop) are moving to the 1DX or 5D MKIII, and say they wont miss the crop factor for a second (sports and bird photographers). Yes that is the dynamic of the Canon market, but Nikon has to keep in mind that if people are moving away from that crop factor, there is a good reason for it. I'm sure it isn't a lack of sensor performance, since the 1Ds MKIV isn't all that far behind the D3s/D4 in terms of noise at high ISO.

    2. None of the companies that produce sensors for Nikon make, or have design patents for such a sensor. If Nikon is planning to release such a camera in the next year, Sony or Aptina would have make such a sensor, which seems unlikely when they apparently have no plans to do so. I will use the D800 and D600 as examples for my point. The sensors in those cameras were patented by the manufacturer about a year before these cameras hit the market. If that is true, where is the patent for the supposed 1.2x crop factor sensor for this mythical camera?
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,172Member
    edited January 2013
    I still highly doubt Nikon will use a 1.2x sensor, for the practical reasons I noted in the previous thread, on the old forum, but I will reiterate them anyway.

    1. Lack of market demand. Besides these threads, I haven't talked to anyone who has shown any interest in such camera (Nikon or Canon users). Most of the Canon shooters I know who have the 1Ds MKIV (1.2x crop) are moving to the 1DX or 5D MKIII, and say they wont miss the crop factor for a second (sports and bird photographers). Yes that is the dynamic of the Canon market, but Nikon has to keep in mind that if people are moving away from that crop factor, there is a good reason for it. I'm sure it isn't a lack of sensor performance, since the 1Ds MKIV isn't all that far behind the D3s/D4 in terms of noise at high ISO.

    2. None of the companies that produce sensors for Nikon make, or have design patents for such a sensor. If Nikon is planning to release such a camera in the next year, Sony or Aptina would have make such a sensor, which seems unlikely when they apparently have no plans to do so. I will use the D800 and D600 as examples for my point. The sensors in those cameras were patented by the manufacturer about a year before these cameras hit the market. If that is true, where is the patent for the supposed 1.2x crop factor sensor for this mythical camera?
    I agree that it is unlikely that a EX sensor camera will be out anytime soon due to the pratical constraints of creating a new sensor. though Nikon did surprise us with the D3S sensor.

    Re the Canon 1.3 format shooters, You are right of that there is a small market of Pro Canon 1.3 shooters that were primarily sports and birders. However, that was due the to the 3 weaknesses I outlined above which the proposed Nikon EX cameras mitigate. The EX systems proposed will have a much wider market than the Canon 1.3 crop system and still cater to the sports shooters and birders.

    I am a strong believer in dreams becoming reality.. you need the vision before the materialisation.  :-)
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    Hi all,

    I'm probably just not 'getting' it, especially since my work flow intents to put all my photographic shots into ACR, even if the process is an automatic setting(s) based on a shot or shots, but given the largeness of the D800's sensor and the pixel count, I would see no reason to assign a new pixel ratio into the mix.

    It would make some things easier, of course. Right now I use antiquated means (an clear overlay taped over the Schott Glass on the camera) to do a Facebook cover or Profile Picture to do them accurately - old school low-fi, but works great.

    Panasonic's Micro 4/3s cameras do have dial-able aspect ratio, and it reduces the usable size of the 4/3s sensor for still images and for video - 4:3 and 16:9 wide screen, but 3:2 as well. While nice for a limited set of circumstances, I'd rather do it in post.

    Which is the
    raison d'être of this comment. With most most motion editing software, Adobe Premiere, Sony Vegas, Avid, or Final Cut, will allow for as much or more control to select which pixels to use in post than selectable aspect ratios in viewfinders would do.

    My best,

    Mike
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,965Member
    @MikeGunter This topic is about an actual 1.2x sensor camera, not post process cropping.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    @PB_PB

    This would mean a pixel aspect 1.2?
    I thought that was finish with HD.

    Now I'm really confused. Certainly not the first time.

    My best,

    Mike
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,965Member
    edited January 2013
    No, a 1.2x crop (like EOS D1s MKIV) vs 1.5x (DX) crop or full frame.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • Once we drop the mirror in the DSLR camera, the possibilities are widened.  
     

    ...and the camera actually becomes a DSL... :P

    Personally I can't see the point in a 1.2 crop, but then I'm using to being in a minority. Why can't we learn to really use what we already have to hand?

  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 3,965Member
    I wonder about that myself, and have the same sentiment on the subject.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • Believe me, I understand the passion behind all these new things (I'm as much a gadget freak as the next man)  - but sometimes I wonder if we're not losing track of the fundamentals.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,027Moderator
    Believe me, I understand the passion behind all these new things (I'm as much a gadget freak as the next man)  - but sometimes I wonder if we're not losing track of the fundamentals.
    Yes we are!

    Where are the customers for this new range coming from?  I doubt there will be that many, but some would come from existing Nikon product lines and there is no profit in that.  I have no doubts that Canon dropped the idea for reasons of it being a niche market and so numbers just weren't there.

    I shoot DX because of increased working distance in macro, crop factor magnification of images by 1.5x (1.5 is greater than 1.2 therefore better) and cost  - there is zero evidence that ' EX' would improve Nikon's market share appreciably which is would have to do.

    I don't normally bet, but I'll take a wager that 'EX' is not going to happen.
    Always learning.
  • adamzadamz Posts: 842Moderator
    Nikon already struggles with DX lenses, so adding one more format to the lineup ain't gonna make it easier for all users. As much as I like the 1.2 crop on FX cameras, I'm much less of a supporter of an entirely new form factor - EX. Just don't get who will benefit from it? 
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