Sony A7r and its Impact on Future Nikon Bodies

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Comments

  • NSXTypeRNSXTypeR Posts: 2,231Member
    Lenses are an issue, as for the most part you need to fill in gaps using the adapters. They do seem awfully expensive for what they are, but this camera is pretty smal, which is kind of interesting.

    A bigger issue is Hasselblad is making their own version of the A7.

    http://photorumors.com/2013/10/17/of-course-there-will-be-a-hasselblad-solar-camera-based-on-the-sony-a7/

    I thought Hasselblad learned their lesson from the Lunar.
    Nikon D7000/ Nikon D40/ Nikon FM2/ 18-135 AF-S/ 35mm 1.8 AF-S/ 105mm Macro AF-S/ 50mm 1.2 AI-S
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    Take a D800 as is. Replace OVF with EVF and give it on sensor AF. Now you can make a D800 that is smaller and cheaper. If you use carbon for the body you can make it lighter too.

    Nikon will make such a camera when the VF and AF is as good as on the D800. No need to go with the prototype Sony version. All we have to do is wait for EVF to be as good or better than OVF and on sensor AF to be as good or better than off sensor AF.

    Till then I will buy some more lenses :)
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    We already have the Nikon1. Most of that tech is already there! Only no FX sensor yet, we have a DX sensor already in the coolpixA. Nikon Just needs to bring it together !
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    @hartyfisher: Nikon showed us how a mirror less camera should be. They made one with a good EVF and good AF. Problem is - as I understand it - that it is not possible yet to do the trick on a larger sensor. Take a look at M43, NEX, Fuji, and the rest of the larger sensor mirror less cameras. They are beginning to have good EVFs but they are not at the DSLR level when it comes to AF.

    If it was possible to beat the D800 in VF and AF Sony would have done it with the A7 and A7r. Give it time - it will come when it is possible.
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    @hartyfisher: Nikon showed us how a mirror less camera should be. They made one with a good EVF and good AF. Problem is - as I understand it - that it is not possible yet to do the trick on a larger sensor. Take a look at M43, NEX, Fuji, and the rest of the larger sensor mirror less cameras. They are beginning to have good EVFs but they are not at the DSLR level when it comes to AF.

    If it was possible to beat the D800 in VF and AF Sony would have done it with the A7 and A7r. Give it time - it will come when it is possible.
    It has nothing to do with sensor size being a limitation of the tech - probably a bit in cost, and as you can see from Sony's 2 FX mirrorless, the one with phase detect only has 24mp vs 36mp. Sony has implied that the 24mp is not as sharp due to using some pixels for the phase detect (which is on the sensor.) I'm not sure how that all equates but it seems to be a very small area needed that only very a small spot of the image would be affected.

    The dedicated AF and Metering systems that DSLRS have continue to prove to be leagues better than any system that has been released in mirrorless cameras. Depending on where companies put their focus that may change in the future.
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    @TaoTeJared: In my list of things that need to improve I forgot one thing that you mentioned - metering.

    The D800 is still the best option in it´s category. If Sony could have made at better camera they would have. I hope that Nikon is working on something even better than the D800.
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,396Moderator
    edited October 2013
    Sony has done us all a great favor and I suspect they are looking to take over the area dominated by Nikon and Canon with professional photographers. The A7 with 5 FPS and continuous AF is a beginning if it really works. This will be something I will watch as the hands on reports come in.

    Oh, I think the Hasselblad version will be sold only to those who have ownership of a new Porsche Turbo-S Cabriolet.... this will maintain the exclusivity factor well.... ;)

    Nikon...mmmm....along with Canon they must be working on their own version of an A7r with a full on effort. Possibly this is why we have not seen a D400???
    Post edited by Msmoto on
    Msmoto, mod
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited October 2013
    If Sony are going full frame, for their professional cameras and lenses, I think we should accept the advantages of Dx is limited to cost. Manufactures do not seem too interest in the niche market of a Pro Dx camera

    I think E mount cameras have a thinner throat, so you can add an F mount lens via an adaptor but not the other way round _ a plus for Sony

    Correct me if am wrong but the Nikon 1 mount has too small a diameter to be used on a full frame camera

    I believe a thinner throat makes it easer to design ultra wide angle and pancake lenses - a plus for Sony

    A thinner throat will give smaller lighter camera - a plus for Sony

    Sony seem to have the advantage of designing a new system from scratch -a plus for Sony

    Nikon...mmmm....along with Canon they must be working on their own version of an A7r with a full on effort -

    it would be a bold move for Nikon to abandon the F mount or Canon the EF mount

    so Sony do seem have a head start

    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    edited October 2013
    @ henrik1963 : "that it is not possible yet to do the trick on a larger sensor"

    The new Fuji X-E2 has pretty good AF. They are saying “fastest phase detect AF in the world”. I am sure the tech is here already.. just getting it to market is taking the time. I will wait for the reviews .. and consider replacing some or all of my nikon gear with the X-E2. Since I am a DX shooter the X-E2 will be equal or better than the nikon DX offerings in practically all features.

    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    @ heartyfisher: I admit that I am not an expert. And I am only repeating what others have said on the matter. But looking at the mirror less cameras that is on the market now none of them are close to pro DSLRs when it comes to AF, VF and perhaps metering.

    I got in to the mirror less market with the Olympus E-P1. Very nice camera with very good image quality. I still have it and still use it. But it has two drawbacks - no VF and very poor AF. I upgraded to a D90 - nice VF but not the best AF for fast moving subjects.

    I upgraded to D800 via D700 - both cameras are a joy to work with - Good VF, very good AF and stunning image quality. And best of all you can get in control of everything without digging in to menus all the time.

    I would love for Nikon to come up with a mirror less camera that does the same good job as my D800. And I am sure they will.

    As for Fuji X-E2: It sure looks nice - I like the form factor of it and I like that it is small. But I´m done changing systems all the time. And as for AF: It is one thing to lock on to something in daylight. But how well does it work in dark places? And does it track fast moving subjects?

    Mirror less cameras are slowly getting there - we just need to wait a little to get what we want. And as I said: If Sony could make a camera that did everything better than a D800 they would have done it.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited October 2013
    when comes to AF

    there can be a big difference between "pretty good" and the D800 or D4
    one very big disadvantage of a D800 is you get spoiled
    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • PapermanPaperman Posts: 469Member
    "so Sony do seem have a head start"

    Sony has had so many head starts ( and failures ) in digital photography - all at the cost of users :)
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    If Sony are going full frame, for their professional cameras and lenses, I think we should accept the advantages of Dx is limited to cost. Manufactures do not seem too interest in the niche market of a Pro Dx camera
    I think E mount cameras have a thinner throat, so you can add an F mount lens via an adaptor but not the other way round _ a plus for Sony
    Correct me if am wrong but the Nikon 1 mount has too small a diameter to be used on a full frame camera
    I believe a thinner throat makes it easer to design ultra wide angle and pancake lenses - a plus for Sony
    A thinner throat will give smaller lighter camera - a plus for Sony
    Sony seem to have the advantage of designing a new system from scratch -a plus for Sony
    Nikon...mmmm....along with Canon they must be working on their own version of an A7r with a full on effort -
    it would be a bold move for Nikon to abandon the F mount or Canon the EF mount
    so Sony do seem have a head start

    Sony has been full frame for their pros for 6 or 7 years now and have been releasing some very high-end glass for those systems. FX is nothing new to them. IT does not appear they are abandoning that system at all but creating a second high end system. Street shooters, prime only users, probably even some reporters will pick these up right away. An adaptor is already released and it is AF and can be used with all existing FX glass.

    Nikon 1 is about 1/4 of the size needed for FX - Zero chance here.
    Throat? Do you mean flange distance? You do know they have had the NEX system right? Nothing different.

    Sony is rich with cash and they have clearly stated they want to be #1 in the camera industry in sales. They are innovating and Nikon and Canon are just holding steady. I don't think Nikon or Canon will release anything. Wish Nikon would though.

    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    when comes to AF

    there can be a big difference between "pretty good" and the D800 or D4
    one very big disadvantage of a D800 is you get spoiled
    I agree completely. Everything focuses so slow, and misses so much more in comparison to my D800. Many Canon 5D MKIII shooters say the same.
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,451Member
    edited October 2013

    Sony is rich with cash and they have clearly stated they want to be #1 in the camera industry in sales. They are innovating and Nikon and Canon are just holding steady. I don't think Nikon or Canon will release anything. Wish Nikon would though.
    According to recent reports the only profitable part of Sony in the last year was the camera division. All other divisions were loosing money. Hardly a company rich with cash.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • PapermanPaperman Posts: 469Member
    edited October 2013
    So many failures from Sony in the DSLR world yet many here seems to be admiring...

    What were they called again ? - A900 & A850 - supposedly the FF DSLRs which would attract masses with their pricing ? Has anyone seen using one ?

    What happened to the A5xx /A700 owners who waited for an upgrade year after year after year, yet nothing came. Just sat and waited to see a DSLT line ( which no serious advanced photographer would go for ) introduced after all those years ...

    And now it is the DSLT victims' turn, the owner of those toys which will no longer be produced ... Oh yes, now the DSLR shaped mirrorless are there for those after the DSLR feel. Pity one can't use the old lenses on them !! All those Alpha lenses - now useless without an adapter . A whole line dropped ! Sony DSLR/DSLT owners must be very happy to see this change.

    In the film days, we had the SLRs and the Viewfinders using the same format - just like the DSLRs and the mirrorless today... How many serious photographers had a viewfinder as a first camera?. How many journalists/professionals preferred viewfinders ? ( Pls let us not come up with the Leica example which served only the rich enthusiast )

    And now Sony is an innovator to be followed because they came up with a FF mirrorless ? - while the mirrorless market is said to be shrinking according to sales data ( where as DSLR market seems to be growing ).

    Sony's only success is the NEX, thanks to university kids with cash to throw and some pros who would like to carry a 2nd/3rd camera in their shirt pockets.






    Post edited by Paperman on
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member

    Sony is rich with cash and they have clearly stated they want to be #1 in the camera industry in sales. They are innovating and Nikon and Canon are just holding steady. I don't think Nikon or Canon will release anything. Wish Nikon would though.
    According to recent reports the only profitable part of Sony in the last year was the camera division. All other divisions were loosing money. Hardly a company rich with cash.
    Having "reported cash" and having tons of money to throw at innovation is two very different things. Huge companies like Sony throw money around like confetti.

    Actually I didn't think their camera division made money at all or ever has.
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited October 2013
    And now Sony is an innovator to be followed because they came up with a FF mirrorless ? -
    That may depend on what you mean by "follow" I try to follow what other manufactures are up to , but that does mean being converted. I hate the idea of "high end optics" and adaptors. in fact, I hate adaptors

    My first Nikon was F mount and so was my last. my current Nikon gear is still compatible with stuff 50 years old
    that cannot said for my first Pentax, screw mount or my first Leica also screw mount

    somewhere is the attic, is some Canon gear which is completely incompatible with todays camera and lenses

    but if some one comes out a camera, that has the IQ and AF speed of my D800 and will go in my pocket I am very interested

    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    Having a good idea is one thing. Having a mature product that fits in with a mature system that is proven - now that is interesting. Sony has a good idea.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited October 2013
    the very big plus seems to be size and weight
    with the 24 -70, f 4, the Sony 7R weighs less than the Nikon D800 Body only
    The 7 and the 7 R seem to have different focusing system spec, with the 7 being the fasted ?
    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    Up until now all that has been done with DSLRs is make a digital SLR - that is good. We can now do things with our digital images that was impossible or very difficult with film. But that has to be done in post.

    How about a shutter less camera with a function like "keep image inside DR"? The camera will apply - 2 F-stops to the top half of the image and + 2 F-stops to the bottom half to keep a nice sunset in the DR of the sensor? Not by pushing shadows but by applying different shutter speed to different parts of the image. Or how about "on sensor filters"? Or built in radios to control flashes? WiFi? GPS? 4G LTE? Motion sensors? Or API for clever people to make new features out of the above?

    In 10 years our cameras will look different - let the dust settle and see who is left standing - probably not Nikon if they don´t do something to the software side of their shop.

    Till then I will enjoy my D800 and a few extra pounds to carry - that will help me stay fit :-)
  • kanuckkanuck Posts: 1,300Member
    Lots of interesting comments posted here especially regarding the lenses for this system. I am about 75% convinced at this point that I will own a A7r as a second body sometime in early 2014. Lots of Leica glass to try out with a Novoflex adapter :)
  • NSXTypeRNSXTypeR Posts: 2,231Member
    Lots of interesting comments posted here especially regarding the lenses for this system. I am about 75% convinced at this point that I will own a A7r as a second body sometime in early 2014. Lots of Leica glass to try out with a Novoflex adapter :)
    Try it out with Leica R glass if you can get your hands on that stuff.

    Nikon D7000/ Nikon D40/ Nikon FM2/ 18-135 AF-S/ 35mm 1.8 AF-S/ 105mm Macro AF-S/ 50mm 1.2 AI-S
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    I wish they would come out with "FXC" which is FX compact. It would be the f-mount but with a shorter flange focal length distance that could accept FX lenses with an adapter. Then have a dozen or so "FXC" lenses to create a system that competes with Leica.

    Think of it as Nikon 1 for the professional and prosumer. I think Nikon could do 95% of Leica for half the price, and I would be all over that.
  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
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