Medium Format in Nikon's Future

TaoTeJared

Actually Phase one moving to CMOS is actually a huge deal for those that don't follow sensors real close.

CCDs were known for image quality, more dynamic range, sharper images, more accurate colors. They were also known for their higher noise and ran quite hot once they were pushed outside their native ISOs.

CMOS on the other hand were not as good as CCDs but have been getting closer. Their advantage was being able to shoot at higher isos with little noise due to less heat generated.

MF industry has been snobbish about CMOS (Leica was too, but they moved as well with this generation) and cited the superiority of CCDs. The addition of a CMOS back (they have not moved all their backs to CMOS yet) points to three things, 1) The hit must have been noticeable with the D800 and the growing rumors of Canon and Nikon with 50mp sensors must have some weight to them, 2) CMOS must have enough improvements and quality increases for them to use the sensor & finally 3) The 50mp sensor range seems to have some significance about it. I'll be damned if I know what it is though.

Just as a note on pixel size - It's 5.3µm. D600= 5.95µm • D800=4.88µm • D300 = 5.49µm • D3 = 8.5µm
I find their emphasis on pixel size very interesting. As I said above 50mp FX sensor rumors must have some weight to them. The focus of the pixel size being 5.3 and size of the sensor is a bit uncommon in MF promo videos. These backs will be around for 4 years so the video will be promoting them for some time. A 50mp FX sensor would have about a 3.8-4µm pitch size. (quick math) It also is a larger pitch than the D800. Selling points are coming out.

The ability to shoot clean shots at higher isos is huge for the MF world. It's not what we think with DSLRs though, it's about light - making your flash lighting more powerful by raising the ISO.

Leica dropped CCDs and now so have PhaseOne - the industry is moving. It will be interesting to keep an eye on Hasselblad - once they move then you know the game changed and CCDs are done (at least for now).

Ade

Hasselblad already announced their move to CMOS a couple of weeks ago.

See discussion in the D4X thread:

http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/430/nikon-d4x/p7

TaoTeJared

Well bye bye CCD then.

Ironheart

One interesting thing about the MF backs is that they support binning which while reduces the megapixels (they have those to burn anyway) boosts the ISO and reduces the noise. Canikon should learn from this, the photographer should be able to make this trade off.

TaoTeJared

Binning is only as good as the software and sensor though - it doesn't necessarily equal better IQ for higher ISOs. The MF images it has produced hasn't proved to be even marginally better. Then again the MF companies have never been focused on making systems for high ISO. Maybe now they are being pushed to finally see it as a desired/real option.

MF shooters are a different breed and are very different shooters - not too much unlike Leica shooters.

sevencrossing

I believe that in less than 10 years, Nikon will have a full-frame camera (DSLR, Mirrorless,

The main BLOG seems to agree with you

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/09/23/nikon-large-sensor-mirrorless-camera-is-a-possibility.aspx/

WestEndFoto

With Hasselblad, Pentax and Fuji now in the medium format space, I wonder if Nikon is thinking about this.

The current medium format offerings are not enough to get me excited. They are medium format light with sensors only about 60% bigger (in area) than FX. But despite the price, medium format heavy would get me excited. I would consider that and relegate my FX to travel and street use.

DaveyJ

My use of large and medium format is OVER. I spent more money than I care to admit that way! This belief that larger is better, at least in field use is fantasy.....and my expensive foray into large and medium format I still deeply regret! Fast forward to today......I prefer DX decidedly to FX for this single reason.......DX can do fantastic work.....if you have a outlet for really huge prints.....I never even owned one of my own shots bigger than 3x9! But when you are putting up shots on Duratrans in Grand Central Station....then large format is sensible! For me, that was in the Days Before Yesterday, and this is Today!

MegapixelSchnitzel

Some one in the Registry' article is speculating that one of the upcoming bodies in the D6-D9 line will be medium format. I don't share his/her optimism about that, though.

DenverShooter

Build a MF body is only part of the equation. You need a full line of lenses to support it....

Denver Shooter

rmp

Given the quality of D810 images and todays post-processing software, I'm beginning to think medium format cameras are simply not needed.

(Of course, I'll have one if @Msmoto wins the lottery.

WestEndFoto

Heck, you don't "need" anything more than a cell phone. There will always be a group that wants more.

Gjesdal

WestEndFoto said:

Heck, you don't "need" anything more than a cell phone.

don't say stuff like that, what if significant other reads this?

rmp

I'm safe. It's got "photo" in the title -- significant other will not read it.

donaldejose

I for one am quite interested in the Fuji GFX 50S, especially when they will produce a 110mm (87mm equivalent) f2 lens for it. It looks quite handholdable. I like the DSLR format. And I am hoping it is a killer portrait camera with great bokeh. Of course, I won't be able to afford it or need it but I am looking forward to seeing what it can do.

WestEndFoto

Gjesdal said:

WestEndFoto said:

Heck, you don't "need" anything more than a cell phone.

don't say stuff like that, what if significant other reads this?

Whups, you are right! We absolutely require large format. None of this panzy "small" medium format junk.

Ironheart

Interesting thoughts on sensor size from Thom:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/its-about-the-sensor-again.html

It really should be "it's all about the sensor size again"

(hint: bigger is better, unless it's 1")

rmp

The size of the V3 is great. The low light response is not. I would like a 1" sensor with a better low-light more than any other improvement.

vtc2002

I have pre-ordered the Fuji GFX. The 23, 45 and 120 lenses offer a great range to start with and believe Fuji will be releasing more options in the 1st quarter of 2017. The ability to use older lenses using an adapter makes it really attractive to current MF users.
It seems Nikon is late in releasing a upgrade for the D810 and they are considerably late in releasing a FF mirrorless camera. Nikon's lack of a full frame mirrorless camera may make sense if they release a MF camera and series of lenses. I seriously doubt this is the case. I expect Pentax and Hasselblad will release a lower priced mirrorless camera in 2017 and by 2018 the price of the MF camera will be at lot closer to the current FF camera prices.
Reading Thom's post one could draw the conclusion that the FF market is going to shrink considerably and could be replaced by either the APS or MF cameras. How Nikon responds to Fuji to me will determine whether they are going to survive or go down the path that Blackberry took. 2017 should be a interesting year.

WestEndFoto

It certainly will be an interesting year. One thing that gives me comfort if that if I was Nikon, I would be waiting for the major players to commit before launching MF. Fuji is an excellent start. Just need to wait for Canon. I would have my "best guess" (format size) designed and ready to launch in a year in case the market changes quickly. I would then be updating that "best guess" continuously.

I would also think seriously about something better than Nikon 1, as I don't believe that is a compelling upgrade for many cellphone users. Maybe something a little smaller than a DX sized sensor to offer a compelling upgrade path to FX.

And I do agree with Thom that there better models should have all the features built in. There is no excuse for the D810 replacement not to have GPS and Snapbridge with wifi built in for example.

vtc2002

Jeff you may be right about what Nikon will do and it sounds very similar to what Blackberry did and we all know how that played out. When Blackberry was the leader in cell phones Samsung and iPhone had less than 3% of the market. Now they are the leaders and that shift was based on them listening to their customers and releasing creative products. They were not being innovative. I had high hopes that after the D500 and D5 were released that Nikon would release a upgrade to the D810 and offer a mirrorless FF this year. Fuji may not be one of the major players right now but they are gaining ground on Nikon and Canon and have beat both of them in the mirrorless market. It hard to get those market shares back once they are gone.

I agree with you on the Nikon 1. I tied one for a couple of weeks and did not feel that it offered much more than my phone. I know you have a post about the death of the DX format and I am wondering if you believe that is still going to happen. I was in your camp but I am not sure at this point.

I agree with you and Thom about the D810 replacement having all the features built in and again I think this is another example of Nikon not listening to their customers.

I hope I am wrong as I have always owned a Nikon camera even though I have and continue to own cameras from other companies. I have 5 Nikon large format camera lenses that are fantastic. I will still be a Nikon person but I will use other cameras if they provide a better product.

WestEndFoto

I still do believe that the death of DX will come. But if you recall from that discussion, that is "DX on the F-mount". I simply believe that sensor prices and pixel density will come to a point that all you will need to do is flip a switch on your FX camera to give you DX. There are certainly a few other advantages to DX, but I believe that they are minor. If anybody wants to debate this, I suggest that we go to that DX thread.

I do believe that Nikon will come out with a "DX or similarly sized" sensor. But it will have its own mount (so smaller), perhaps be a square sensor and probably mirrorless.

Ironheart

Not wanting to reignite the format wars, but interesting that Thom is saying DX is his choice for Safaris and believes its the best prosumer option. The D5/D500 twin is proof that even Nikon is of two minds on this, and wants to give the consumer (pro or otherwise) good choices. For me, the 1" sensor has its place, kicks butt on my most modern cell phone for IQ and lets me bring a full range of zooms and primes inside my overhead carry for less than 6lbs. It also goes into places like sporting arenas where you aren't allowed anything with a lens bigger than 4"

You can see the rain falling in the full-size image on flickr

Trust me as the light starts to go, I'd rather have 1" than a cell phone. But when it starts to get into evening or indoors at night, I agree DX or FX with a fast lens is the only way to fly.
Of course, for static landscapes the MF is king, always will be. If I were a wedding or fashion photog I would probably want it as well for most portrait work. But for run and gun reportage style? FX. For sports and action? DX for reach.

Each has its own place. I declare the death of nothing, only more options. The horse and buggy is still available as a transportation option after all

Why haven't I gotten into MFT? I don't know, someone convince me...

vtc2002

Jeff I agree with you about the DX and FX mount. But I think the DX market will continue to grow. The FX market could see a hit if the major players in the MF space release cameras that are priced comparable to the FF cameras.

I agree with @Ironheart that it depends on what you are shooting. I use MF and LF film and MF digital for landscapes and portraits. It is a pain to use them due to size and weight. If I can get a MF mirrorless that weighs less and produces the same or better results than a FF or MF digital or film camera I will take it. Nikon surprised everyone with the D800 and the D500. I want them to surprise everyone with a MF mirrorless camera. As one of the major players they need to be innovative and they need to be listening to their customers. I want them to be innovative. Pentax, Fuji are in cameras and Sigma is kicking butt with their lenses. Blackberry completely ignored the user experience and did not listen to what the market (customers) wanted. By the time they did it was to late. They still make a great cell phone, messaging and secure device but are a insignificant player in the market. I would hate to see the same thing happen to Nikon. It appears that Canon is listening and there are rumors that they will release a mirrorless camera that will most likely be MF. Even if it is FF they will do it before Nikon releases one. If this happens and Nikon does not respond quickly Nikon will take another hit in lost customers.
Don't get me wrong, I love my D810's. I agree with Jeff and Thom I want a complete package from Nikon. I want built in GPS, built in WiFi or Snapbridge that actually works, to be able to use the SB-5000 without having to use an adapter, electronic front curtain that works other than when you are in MUP, IR remote and get rid of the ancient 10 pin, etc.

WestEndFoto

I think it is reasonable that the DX size range will be where the volume will be.