Last days of the DSLR?

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  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,450Moderator
    Why the loss of savings? Software (firmware) programers are often paid more than manufacturing staff.
    Not really the case because the few software people only do their job once for the whole life of the product whereas the many manufacturing people put every camera together.

    Generally for me, I think the DSLR/EVIL choice is like preferring a classic British side-by-side shotgun over an assault rifle.
    Always learning.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited December 2013
    Don't forget that the flange to focal plane distance can be greatly reduced ........ No more retrofocus issues. The 14-24 2.8G would be less than half the size and either twice as good or half the price........
    henrik1963
    As of now a mirror less camera is a little lighter

    I can't see most people buying a particular camera because of the shutter sound
    and I can't see the price coming down much
    fps seems to be a function of how quickly you write to the card, rather than the speed the mirror can go up and down

    but reducing size, weight of not only of the camera but also ultra wide zooms and primes; would be a very big plus for me
















    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    In the film days the SLR won over the Leica design because it solved a problem - You could mount any lens and se what you the final image was going to look like - it made framing easy. What does a mirror less camera design solve?

    I want a D900 with 48 megapixel. And I want it with build in radio to control flashes ala Pocket wizard. I want a brighter viewfinder. I want geotagging with build in compass so I can se which way the camera was pointing.

    Does it have a mirror? I don't care. If you can make a better camera without a mirror - go for it. But if you can make a better camera with a mirror then I can live with that.

    What do you want in your next camera?
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    BTW if you want a D5 with a burst rate of 60 frames a second - completely silent it probably needs to be a mirror less camera :-)
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    The D4 can already shoot at 60fps, as can the D3200...
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    Hi all,

    'Shutter sound' might not be an influence, but quietness is. Mirrorless is quieter and a huge bonus. The back for focusing is very good for multiple angle shooting. (Although I miss an optical view finder.)

    Getting a significant burst rate with buffer is quite possible 60fps or greater. Sustained high bit rate is probably more a function of the card and function pass-through of the electronics.

    Smaller (or larger) will be something for each individual to sort out for themselves. Travelers, journalists, street shooters, periodical contributors, people who log a lot of miles with their cameras will like something small and unobtrusive. I was one of those. This would be something I would have liked a lot.

    Right now, personally, I have too much into Nikon for serious considering a switch, and the systems is just too immature to put it into the forefront as a serious consideration, but as a future concept, absolutely.

    My best,

    Mike
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,428Member
    edited December 2013
    The D4 can already shoot at 60fps, as can the D3200...
    In video mode at 720p, but not for full resolution still shooting. ;)
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    The D4 can already shoot at 60fps, as can the D3200...
    In video mode at 720p, but not for full resolution still shooting. ;)
    Busted :-(
  • kyoshinikonkyoshinikon Posts: 411Member
    Lol I know that PB_PM! It is good info for the floaters tho. I was more referring to the Idea behind keeping the sound a mechanical shutter makes in cameras with no mechanical shutter. Most shutterless point and shoots have an option for the sound. (Who am I kidding no point shoot nowadays has a shutter lol). Electronic "shutters are not only possible on any camera but they are slowly sneaking into the higher end cameras. I believe the Eos1DC has one. With an electronic shutter it can do like 15 fps (I guess framerate is limited to the amount the circuitry can handle which hasn't been hit as the current firmware and sensors don't send enough data to cause any issues).

    One question I do have, is a DSLR's shutter always live or is it also electric too along with the mechanical one?
    “To photograph is to hold one’s breath, when all faculties converge to capture fleeting reality. It’s at that precise moment that mastering an image becomes a great physical and intellectual joy.” - Bresson
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    I think that framerate is limited by two factors. How fast the mirror can move out of the way - the Canon 1DCX shoots the fastest in mirror up mode, which seems pointless as you can't see what you are shooting. The second limitation would be how fast the focus system can work. Most of the mirrorless with fast frame rates have a really low hit rate.
  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    For those of us that have the capability to shoot 8+ fPS, I will tell you this: of seen that I have shot full burst, I I usually end up with 1 or 2 images that I find acceptable to keep. Note: this has nothing to do with focus but the content of the image itself. Thus, I usually will dump about 95% of the images taken in. Have the capability of shooting fast is on thing, getting some thing that you will find worthy of sharing and keeping is another.
    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,428Member
    edited December 2013

    One question I do have, is a DSLR's shutter always live or is it also electric too along with the mechanical one?
    Sort of, otherwise the sensor would always be on. From a practical stand point, no. As noted earlier in this thread the D50, D70(s) and D40 used a hybrid shutter, which is the reason they had flash sync speeds up to 1/500s (beyond 1/500s the mechanical shutter took over). Once Nikon stopped using an electronic/mechanical shutter the flash sync speed fell down to 1/250s.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • kyoshinikonkyoshinikon Posts: 411Member
    Never knew that. I always wondered why the D70 had the 1/500 but the D80 or D200 didn't... Does this mean we could get a sync of 1/2500 or more in an electrical shutter body. I know some of their bodies have a false electrical sync with their flashes so you can get 1/320 fps...
    “To photograph is to hold one’s breath, when all faculties converge to capture fleeting reality. It’s at that precise moment that mastering an image becomes a great physical and intellectual joy.” - Bresson
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,428Member
    Theoretically with an electronic shutter you could have flash sync speeds matching the fastest shutter speed possible. Beyond 1/1000th you would need some extremely powerful lights though. Lets put it this way, at 1/2500 you wouldn't get much light from a typical on camera flash unit (SB-700/SB-910 etc).
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • kyoshinikonkyoshinikon Posts: 411Member
    I know that but for my Studio flashes which pull 800w a sec it would be handy to have without stacking 20 N'd s on
    “To photograph is to hold one’s breath, when all faculties converge to capture fleeting reality. It’s at that precise moment that mastering an image becomes a great physical and intellectual joy.” - Bresson
  • moreorlessmoreorless Posts: 120Member
    Don't forget that the flange to focal plane distance can be greatly reduced if you remove the mirror. I think this is what will be the "killer ap" of mirrorless cameras. No more retrofocus issues. The 14-24 2.8G would be less than half the size and either twice as good or half the price. - See more at: http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/2026/last-days-of-the-dslr/p2#sthash.6UgYhHEm.dpuf
    This has often been talked up but the reality is that digital sensors do not respond well to light hitting them at extreme angles compared to film. Just look at UWA lenses on smaller format mirrorless, they all need to be long to avoid this. Move up to FF and you have the new Sony FE lenses that actually look longer than equivalent SLR lenses.
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    Yes, because electronic shutters don't exist... oh wait they do. :p In fact Nikon used them in pervious DSLRs, albeit in a hybrid fashion. The D50, D70, and D40 used that system to achieve a 1/500s flash sync.
    The N1 V1 uses both Mechanical and Electronic shutters too(for totally silent shutters)..

    and my D70 had flash sync to 1/8000 Thank you!

    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    Heartyfisher said: Seriously considering getting the Df for my "real" photography.. but will probably stay with getting a conventional D610/D400/D800. will see how it goes when the NAS strikes

    Followed your logic until you said D400. Can't stay with it if it doesn't exist. :-*
    LOL ! tried to hide it between the D610 and the D800 .. ;-) yeah if a D400 arrives NAS will bite hard ! :-(
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    edited December 2013
    An electronic shutter is not a physical thing, it simply is the amount of time the sensor is active to achieve the needed exposure. It is referred to as a shutter merely to make it easier for people to relate to what is happening.

    As for the sound, that's just something people rely on out of tradition. In any case, even the electronic shutter on the V1 makes noise. The memory card activity light gives more than enough feedback in any case.
    I sometimes turn all sound and indications off on my V1.. total stealth mode :-) works well..
    To make it clear. I press the button.. camera takes photo. but no sound or led lights or lcd lights or any indication a photo was taken if I didn't have my eye to the view finder. in the viewfinder the image freezes for a couple of seconds.
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    I see but I wasn't talking about the shutter "sound" when I said " why is a shutter needed " .... I was actually talking about the shutter mechanism.
    A physical shutter is needed to protect the sensor from strong lights like the sun or lasers. Physical shutters also reduces light bleeding around bright spots..

    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    edited December 2013

    One question I do have, is a DSLR's shutter always live or is it also electric too along with the mechanical one?
    Sort of, otherwise the sensor would always be on. From a practical stand point, no. As noted earlier in this thread the D50, D70(s) and D40 used a hybrid shutter, which is the reason they had flash sync speeds up to 1/500s (beyond 1/500s the mechanical shutter took over).
    Nope .. as I mentioned earlier my D70 flash synced to 1/8000 .. the 1/500 was an artificial limitation set by nikon firmware. shutters below 1/200 was mechanical .. above that it was electronic.

    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    Don't forget that the flange to focal plane distance can be greatly reduced if you remove the mirror. I think this is what will be the "killer ap" of mirrorless cameras. No more retrofocus issues. The 14-24 2.8G would be less than half the size and either twice as good or half the price.

    Larger than 35-50 mm though, this difference disappears.
    That is not a good assumption. Retro-focus design is just an option for designers, not a necessity, nor would it necessarily go away. The amount of lenses, and groups of lenses is used to correct various optical artifacts, not to correct flange distance. The real reason mirrorless lenses are smaller is that the coverage area needed is smaller as well as the aperture opening and the zoom range. F2.8-4 primes are much much smaller.

    Electronic shutters is probably in the future, but obviously are not too close yet. The shutter is one of the most expensive and with a life span, if designers could get rid of it, they would.

    We could go on forever about future tech, it still remains, the DSLR is King, and everything is still trying to match it.

    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,396Moderator
    @moreorless

    I agree the current sensors do not respond as well to light hitting from an extreme angle, but, this may be figured out as well in terms of the surface of the sensors.

    And, if this is found to be impossible, then we will have more huge lenses like the new Zeiss Distagon 55mm f/1.4 ZF.2. Or any of the newer f/1.4 lenses….
    Msmoto, mod
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    the issue with the "extreme angle" is due to the existence of the micro lenses. a partial solution is the use of the offset microlense design (like in the coolpixA) but some other solution is needed .. eg get rid of the micro-lenses all together or use microfibres or something else entirely.. .
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,396Member
    A note on "future tech:" The main blog is noting that the D5300 is made out of a new carbon fiber reinforced plastic sort of like F1 race cars. Carbon fiber is both lighter and stronger than metal. If this material can be built into a body stronger then the D4, D800 "pro" bodies we may see it surface in a D400. I would like to see Nikon produce a D4 like body made with this new material for the D400. The demise of the DSLR may actually be an evolution which starts with replacing parts as new technologies make it possible to do so. Perhaps metal bodies will become carbon fiber bodies. Perhaps OVF will be replaced with EVF. Perhaps the mirror will be eliminated without changing the shape of the DSLR body to keep compatibly with older lenses. Perhaps the mechanical shutter will be replaced with an electronic shutter with no change in body shape. The first non-DSLRs may look very much like DSLRs even though they are not. Meanwhile, Nikon may produce an entirely new body slotted between the current DSLR line and the current Nikon 1 line which can take full advantage of new technologies (needing new lenses?) and use both DX and FX sensors. This new body may take more of a "rangefinder" look since an EVF does not need a pentaprism on top of the camera body.
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