Last days of the DSLR?

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  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    @MikeGunter: Different tools for different tasks. I once shot Leica cameras - M2 and M4P. Leica was good - it was small and silent. But it was slow - way to slow for fast moving kids. My F3 was way faster in operation. Later the F801s was even better. It had matrix metering and AF.

    When most people talk about mirror less cameras they focus on small and light. That is good for some things. But if small and light come at the expense of AF, lenses and a lot of other things I won't buy. Been there.

    Future cameras should bring more not less.

    I got my Olympus M43 as a small and light camera. It is good. But I won't dump my D800 just yet :-)

    I really don't care if cameras has mirrors or not. All I want is for cameras to be better over time. And I think that it would be a good idea for Nikon to make different cameras for different tasks.
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    Hi all,

    @ henrik1963 This we can clearly agree to on all accounts!

    My best.

    Mike
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    The rumored Fuji X-T1 mirrorless (to be announced next week):

    16mp APS-C (DX) X-Trans sensor
    Compact magnesium-alloy body (looks like a mini Df)
    8 fps with full AF tracking
    0.08s AF lag (world fastest)
    ISO 6400, plus H1 and H2 (25,600)
    Tilt Screen
    Fully weather-sealed
    Dual SD slots w/ UHS-2 support
    Built-in WiFi
    Optional battery grip
    Priced around $1,700

    Lots to like in those specs.






  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    Will it have inter-changeable lens?
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    Yes, interchangeable X-mount lenses.
  • manhattanboymanhattanboy Posts: 1,003Member


    A good electronic viewfinder is still not an optical viewfinder.
    •It’s slow. It wakes up slow, focuses slow, and it takes 1.5 images per second.


    I don't think the DSLR is dead yet
    I agree 100%. Anyone who has tried to shoot a mirrorless in extremely bright sunlight trying to track motion in the far distance using a tele lens knows exactly why the DSLR is not dead yet.

    The mirrorless cameras are best at short range photos and indoors...exactly the same things most people use their ever improving smart phone cameras to shoot. I believe this is fundamentally why the mirrorless cameras have not been as popular as the Canikon thinktanks would have liked. If they were smart, they would target the significant noise advantage in low light of mirrorless sensors, but look at their advertising line:
    "Never miss a moment"
    Hmm, that's why my smart phone has a camera...so I'll never miss a moment!

    ~~~
    Which leads me to another rant, why can't we get cheap, good super teles. There is no real competing products for the supertele category and IMHO if Canikon made more budget friendly good tele lenses to go with their consumer level cameras they would drive higher sales as there would be no other product categories competing.
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    edited January 2014
    Here is an interesting article. Perhaps DSLRs are not dead yet???

    http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/nikon-suggests-smartphones-are-helping-boost-camera-market
    Yes they've been saying that for awhile.

    The standard PR line is that smartphones may be affecting the P&S market (and mirrorless cameras) but not high-end SLRs.

    However, the reality is, unless there was a December miracle, last year Nikon and Canon SLR sales contracted for the first time since the digital era began. We won't know for sure until the final CIPA numbers come out, but through November we're seeing almost 15% drop in SLR units shipped between 2012 and 2013, and almost 20% drop in SLR units produced. Not good.
    Post edited by Ade on
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    Ade, have a look at the data a little closer. For SLR cameras, unit and dollar volumes are both down, but dollar volumes less which suggests that the lower end is being hit harder than the higher end.

    Then have a look at lenses. For 35mm lenses unit volumes are down but by a smaller margin. Dollar volumes are actually up.

    And cameras/lenses smaller than 35mm are fairing worse.

    Not to say that there isn't truth in your worst fears, but other factors could be at play. Consider:
    1.
    The lower end is being eroded by smartphones.
    2.
    The higher end is in the middle of the product cycle. The D4, D800 and D600 all came out about 1-2 years ago and the enthusiasts have made their purchases.
    3.
    Camera dollars, now that everyone has their DSLR or their full frame, are being re-directed towards lenses. Will you really need to upgrade your D800 to a D810 in 2016, or will the D800 be good enough until the D820 comes out in 2020?
    4.
    There is a fundamental shift going on that Canikon has not exploited yet. In-camera wireless, in camera GPS, smaller form factor, mirrorless (but done right, CX seems to small), changes in fashion (part of the rationale behind the Olympus OM-D and Nikon DF).

    Thoughts?
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    I don't think that's correct (but I can be wrong).

    I believe it's the percentage in Yen -- not Dollar -- that's slightly better. However that's mainly because in 2013 the Yen was significantly weaker vs. both the Dollar and the Euro as compared to 2012, and the vast majority of SLR bodies and lenses (over 90%) are sold outside of Japan.

    I.e., for most of 2012 the Dollar was about 80 Yen, while in 2013 the Dollar hovered around 100 Yen. So the Yen value of goods sold is 'artificially' boosted by this difference in foreign exchange rates.
  • manhattanboymanhattanboy Posts: 1,003Member

    There is a fundamental shift going on that Canikon has not exploited yet. In-camera wireless, in camera GPS, smaller form factor, mirrorless (but done right, CX seems to small), changes in fashion (part of the rationale behind the Olympus OM-D and Nikon DF).

    Thoughts?
    Canon has in camera wireless, GPS, and a smaller form factor in the 6D. I would add price. If they can get a full frame down to $1000 I think that will help boost short term sales, as well as giving people what they want while canibalizing their own sales. Long term though they should concentrate on tele for dslrs as physics is harder to overcome.
  • NSXTypeRNSXTypeR Posts: 2,226Member

    There is a fundamental shift going on that Canikon has not exploited yet. In-camera wireless, in camera GPS, smaller form factor, mirrorless (but done right, CX seems to small), changes in fashion (part of the rationale behind the Olympus OM-D and Nikon DF).

    Thoughts?
    Canon has in camera wireless, GPS, and a smaller form factor in the 6D. I would add price. If they can get a full frame down to $1000 I think that will help boost short term sales, as well as giving people what they want while canibalizing their own sales. Long term though they should concentrate on tele for dslrs as physics is harder to overcome.
    My cousin has a 6D, he loves it. I've shot it once or twice and it seems like a good kit. It's a bit of a shame that the AF system is a bit of a downgrade from the 5D MkIII, but other than that it's a great camera. The WiFi is great for remote shooting, and he uses an app on his iPhone.

    I think the bigger issue is why does Canon and Nikon like doing this sort of equipment juggle on us? I mean, GPS and WiFi is available on the 6D but not the 5D MkIII. I don't think the D7100 is going to be refreshed yet, so I don't think Wifi and GPS will get in the D7100 until at least another year.

    It's annoying, and frankly just stupid.
    Nikon D7000/ Nikon D40/ Nikon FM2/ 18-135 AF-S/ 35mm 1.8 AF-S/ 105mm Macro AF-S/ 50mm 1.2 AI-S
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    I would like to see GPS and wireless on every new DSLR release from Nikon. The world has changed and those are table stakes, not "an option".
  • NSXTypeRNSXTypeR Posts: 2,226Member
    I would like to see GPS and wireless on every new DSLR release from Nikon. The world has changed and those are table stakes, not "an option".
    I agree, the only reason I can see Nikon can justify not putting it in is so that they can profit off of and sell the huge bulky GPS module and the Wifi module.
    Nikon D7000/ Nikon D40/ Nikon FM2/ 18-135 AF-S/ 35mm 1.8 AF-S/ 105mm Macro AF-S/ 50mm 1.2 AI-S
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    I would like to see GPS and wireless on every new DSLR release from Nikon. The world has changed and those are table stakes, not "an option".
    I agree, the only reason I can see Nikon can justify not putting it in is so that they can profit off of and sell the huge bulky GPS module and the Wifi module.
    That sounds like a better strategy for selling Canon cameras than bulky Nikon accessories. Another example would be radio triggers built into their flash system, though perhaps that creates regulatory issues in different jurisdictions.
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    I don't think that's correct (but I can be wrong).

    I believe it's the percentage in Yen -- not Dollar -- that's slightly better. However that's mainly because in 2013 the Yen was significantly weaker vs. both the Dollar and the Euro as compared to 2012, and the vast majority of SLR bodies and lenses (over 90%) are sold outside of Japan.

    I.e., for most of 2012 the Dollar was about 80 Yen, while in 2013 the Dollar hovered around 100 Yen. So the Yen value of goods sold is 'artificially' boosted by this difference in foreign exchange rates.
    That is about right. I still think my points have an unknown amount of merit, but now with less evidence.

    But I would hope that Nikon would know. I wonder if they do?
  • manhattanboymanhattanboy Posts: 1,003Member

    I agree, the only reason I can see Nikon can justify not putting it in is so that they can profit off of and sell the huge bulky GPS module and the Wifi module.
    I have tried the Nikon wireless module for the D7.1K and android app, with the app constantly crashing on either of 2 android phones. I hate to say it, but I have no problems with Canon's version of wifi or their app. To sadly quote Kelby, it just works. X_X I feel like a sucker for blowing $50 on a useless wifi module. Does anyone have any alternative apps that will control the camera using Nikon's wifi module???
  • NSXTypeRNSXTypeR Posts: 2,226Member

    I agree, the only reason I can see Nikon can justify not putting it in is so that they can profit off of and sell the huge bulky GPS module and the Wifi module.
    I have tried the Nikon wireless module for the D7.1K and android app, with the app constantly crashing on either of 2 android phones. I hate to say it, but I have no problems with Canon's version of wifi or their app. To sadly quote Kelby, it just works. X_X I feel like a sucker for blowing $50 on a useless wifi module. Does anyone have any alternative apps that will control the camera using Nikon's wifi module???
    Good to hear your experiences with the wifi module, I was planning on getting one myself eventually. I may just hold off on it.

    Yeah, it seems like my cousin's 6D is pretty flawless with the wifi. He seems pretty happy with it.

    Nikon seems to be good with hardware and only so-so with software.
    Nikon D7000/ Nikon D40/ Nikon FM2/ 18-135 AF-S/ 35mm 1.8 AF-S/ 105mm Macro AF-S/ 50mm 1.2 AI-S
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    The rumored Fuji X-T1 mirrorless (to be announced next week):

    16mp APS-C (DX) X-Trans sensor
    Compact magnesium-alloy body (looks like a mini Df)
    8 fps with full AF tracking
    0.08s AF lag (world fastest)
    ISO 6400, plus H1 and H2 (25,600)
    Tilt Screen
    Fully weather-sealed
    Dual SD slots w/ UHS-2 support
    Built-in WiFi
    Optional battery grip
    Priced around $1,700

    Lots to like in those specs.
    Hi all,

    @Ade,

    Fujifilm uses their own 6 x 6 'random' array of pixels under a proprietary formulation without using an optical low pass filter. Fuji claims the images from their APS-C cameras rival FX cameras - which would be a wonder if they did.

    This camera is rumored to also have 'peaking focus', too, like the Sony A7, which would put it into that family of portable mirrorless cameras.

    I have my eye one it, especially if the other rumors of '$1300' are true. ;-)

    Fuji has just applied for a rather interesting senor field array, emphasizing low light.

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/01/24/fujifilm-files-patent-for-color-filter-array-with-different-sized-pixels?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=news-list&utm_medium=text&ref=title_0_5

    My best,

    Mike
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    That new sensor pattern is pretty interesting. Not only the irregular arrangement but the large area of white (clear) pixels in addition to the green pixels (RGB+W). Currently there are no DLSRs (or even mirrorless cameras) using white/clear pixels, but the newest smartphones are starting to have them.
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    Early reviews of the X-T1 have been very positive. $1300 for body only, $1700 w/ 18-55mm kit lens.

    Not gonna lie... I wish Nikon made something like this, I'd order one already.
  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    The only thing that the X-T1 has going for it is the price. The Df still gets my vote, in more ways than one.
    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,428Member
    edited January 2014
    The thing is the X-T1 and Df are totally different cameras, and not directly comparable. I do find the reaction to each of those products rather amusing though.

    The Df was blasted for having a retro design, manual dials, a 1/4000s shutter and 1/200s flash sync and price (I accept the last one). The X-T1 on the other hand is praised for having a retro design, manual dials, 1/4000s shutter and 1/180s flash sync. The only thing the X-T1 has on the Df is price. All in all the praise this camera has received is way out proportion.

    Of course, the X-T1 is a mirrorless camera (thus hyped up to no end) and the Df is from a long line of "legacy and passe" mirror using cameras that should be tossed in the garbage because they are big and junky crap. :P
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    To me the X-T1 seems to be what the Df should have been.

    I don't know if I will buy an X-T1 or an OMD EM-1 or another alternative (Leica?) -- but for the first time in 20+ years, I can see myself without a Nikon SLR.
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