Can the "The Decisive Moment" be captured at 4 fps

sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
edited January 2014 in Nikon DSLR cameras
one of the big moans about the D800 is it will "only" shoot at 4 fps

I have used double dark slides ( change film after each exposure )
I used to do weddings on roll film ( change film after 12 exposures)
so the concept of shooting at 4 fps is a novel idea to me but I like it
the D4 can run for twenty continuous seconds at 10 FPS
and its replacement is meant to be even faster
but how many fps do you We/ You really need
Post edited by sevencrossing on
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Comments

  • ThomasHortonThomasHorton Posts: 323Member
    Nyquist would say that you need an FPS rate that is 1/2 of the temporal duration of the "Decisive Moment".

    A high FPS may make it easier to capture the DM. But ultimately, it is the skill and experience of the photographer that matters.

    I am pretty sure that a pro sports photographer can garner more keepers at 4fps than I could at 12 fps. :) :D
    Gear: Camera obscura with an optical device which transmits and refracts light.
  • ChasCSChasCS Posts: 309Member
    edited January 2014
    The wonderful Nikon D800.
    With the addition of the awesome Vanguard GH-100T pistol grip, there seems to be no limitation to the number of exposures that can be shot, in one set.
    As long as you hold in the trigger, it keeps shooting, till the buffer fills up, or your batteries go dead.
    There is also a slide that when pushed up, with the trigger released, will continue the shots being fired, on its own.

    Watch the first 20 seconds of this youtube vid:

    Or if it won't play in your particular browser, simply type the following code into the youtube search window, FJA8gwle5XI

    The limitations to those four continuous frames can certainly be eliminated with the right gear attached.
    You can also obviously take up to 9 frames in Bracket mode... ;-) but that's another setting...
    Post edited by ChasCS on
    D800, AF-S NIKKOR 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6G ED VR, B+W Clear MRC 77mm, AF-S NIKKOR 24-120mm f/4G ED VR, Sigma DG UV 77mm,
    SB-910~WG-AS3, SB-50, ME-1, Lexar Professional 600x 64GB SDXC UHS-I 90MB/s* x2, 400x 32GB SDHC UHS-I 60MB/s* x1
    Vanguard ALTA PRO 263AT, GH-300T, SBH-250, SBH-100, PH-22 Panhead
    Lowepro S&F Deluxe Technical Belt and Harness ~ Pouch 60 AW 50 AW & 10, S&F Toploader 70 AW, Lens Case 11 x 26cm
    FE, NIKKOR 2-20mm f/1.8, OPTEX UV 52mm, Vivitar Zoom 285, Kodacolor VR 1000 CF 135-24 EXP DX 35mm, rePlay XD1080

  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    I have never had any luck with blasting away. Every time I have tried it with my D700 + grip I didn't get what I wanted. I have had much better luck shooting one frame - trying to shoot at the right moment. That is not to say that I get it every time - just that my keeper rate is higher.
  • ChasCSChasCS Posts: 309Member
    Practice and persistence, or video mode... ;-) j/k

    If you know what you want, go get it, timing is everything...
    D800, AF-S NIKKOR 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6G ED VR, B+W Clear MRC 77mm, AF-S NIKKOR 24-120mm f/4G ED VR, Sigma DG UV 77mm,
    SB-910~WG-AS3, SB-50, ME-1, Lexar Professional 600x 64GB SDXC UHS-I 90MB/s* x2, 400x 32GB SDHC UHS-I 60MB/s* x1
    Vanguard ALTA PRO 263AT, GH-300T, SBH-250, SBH-100, PH-22 Panhead
    Lowepro S&F Deluxe Technical Belt and Harness ~ Pouch 60 AW 50 AW & 10, S&F Toploader 70 AW, Lens Case 11 x 26cm
    FE, NIKKOR 2-20mm f/1.8, OPTEX UV 52mm, Vivitar Zoom 285, Kodacolor VR 1000 CF 135-24 EXP DX 35mm, rePlay XD1080

  • adamzadamz Posts: 842Moderator
    I will only confirm what PitchBlack wrote, no problems with shooting fast action with D800. In my case wildlife and birds in flight.
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    For years I have limited the HCL to 3 FPS on my D300 due the fact most normal (children playing, people walking, etc.) changes are slower than the 6fps it could do. There has been a few times I wish I had a bit faster FPS (1 or 2 more frames) but I don't even recall the actual instances/settings, but I know I have had them. Honestly I would rather see the buffer increase in size than the FPS. I have had more buffer filling issues with the D800 than FPS.

    IMHO the "I need more FPS" stems from people not understanding the basic principal of the Exposure Triangle and don't understand the reason they are missing shots is because the exposure they have set forces slower FPS and it is not the camera's capture rate that is limiting them. They need to have a faster aperture lens or up the ISO. So many times people ask me and/or believe they need a "faster" camera when actually they are trying to stop motion in dark environments with a 5.6+ lens and turn off the auto iso. That, or they see "motion blur" and don't understand their shutter is too slow. There is a whole another set of people who buy too slow of cards to handle the FPS or think when the camera slows down due to the buffer filling, that somehow more FPS will help, but it will not.

    There are High FPS shooting needs but realistically 3-4 fps is all people really need. As PitchBlack and Adamz indicated, an experienced shooter will wait for a moment and "burst" shoot to capture the shot.
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,280Member
    4FPS isn't that bad. I managed to get decent shots with my first DSLR (D80, 3.5FPS) so I think the limit is the photographer, not the speed.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • adamzadamz Posts: 842Moderator
    +1 TTJ on the buffer size. it's a huge issue on D800 even with the fastest cards on market. personally, I'm using Sandisk Extreme Pro SD and I can fill the buffer quite easily.
  • NSXTypeRNSXTypeR Posts: 2,163Member
    I don't really shoot sports so I don't need a quick frame rate. I too limited my continuous high speed to 3 fps. I don't want to hand my camera off to a friend and get 20 shots of the same thing with a little variation. :D
    Nikon D7000/ Nikon D40/ Nikon FM2/ 18-135 AF-S/ 35mm 1.8 AF-S/ 105mm Macro AF-S/ 50mm 1.2 AI-S
  • ChasCSChasCS Posts: 309Member
    The thought is that with higher FPS, they will finally get Thee shot.

    It's a "roll of the dice" way of thinking.

    The higher the frame rate, the odds of getting one keeper is greater... But me thinks not, at very least not, for some.

    Timing is everything!! Or shoot video. ;-)
    D800, AF-S NIKKOR 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6G ED VR, B+W Clear MRC 77mm, AF-S NIKKOR 24-120mm f/4G ED VR, Sigma DG UV 77mm,
    SB-910~WG-AS3, SB-50, ME-1, Lexar Professional 600x 64GB SDXC UHS-I 90MB/s* x2, 400x 32GB SDHC UHS-I 60MB/s* x1
    Vanguard ALTA PRO 263AT, GH-300T, SBH-250, SBH-100, PH-22 Panhead
    Lowepro S&F Deluxe Technical Belt and Harness ~ Pouch 60 AW 50 AW & 10, S&F Toploader 70 AW, Lens Case 11 x 26cm
    FE, NIKKOR 2-20mm f/1.8, OPTEX UV 52mm, Vivitar Zoom 285, Kodacolor VR 1000 CF 135-24 EXP DX 35mm, rePlay XD1080

  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    I saw a guy with a Canon 5D Mk3 in an art gallery about a month ago shooting art with his camera set on continuous. I tried very hard not to laugh.
  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    edited January 2014
    For those of us that have a D4, D3 or D3s, the faster FPS with these bodies truly make shooting action shots much more rewarding. These bodies allow for many keepers, thanks to their amazing AF system when used with the right lens. Hence, fast aperture lenses (1.4, 1.8, 2.8, & f/4's...and yes the 800mm 5.6 needless to say)
    For me personally, the 10FPS of the D4 was very much appreciated; but it was NOT on the top 5 reasons I went with such a body. Do I need more than 10FPS at this moment or in the near future, No! Has it made me a better photographer...No! Can I get the shot I seek with the D800, D610, D7100 or D7000....YES! It is all about the technique. Hence, henrik1963 comment.

    The additional FPS does make the getting the shot easer, but that is far from getting the "right shot."
    Post edited by Golf007sd on
    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,396Moderator
    A vehicle traveling 100 mph (161 km/h) is going about 147 feet per second. If an incident occurs, 10 frames will cover about 150 feet of travel with an image abut very 15 feet. It is much easier to catch a moment when the "peak" of the action is occurring with this frame rate. Same for any moving targets, motorcycles, baseballs, footballs, etc., the higher frame rate makes it simply more likely one will catch the proper moment.

    However, in the old days, hand cranking a Nikon F, we could get almost one and one-half frames per second and thought we were really something…..LOL Oh, and we were manually focusing as well!
    Msmoto, mod
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    A vehicle traveling 100 mph (161 km/h) is going about 147 feet per second. If an incident occurs, 10 frames will cover about 150 feet of travel with an image abut very 15 feet. It is much easier to catch a moment when the "peak" of the action is occurring with this frame rate. Same for any moving targets, motorcycles, baseballs, footballs, etc., the higher frame rate makes it simply more likely one will catch the proper moment.

    However, in the old days, hand cranking a Nikon F, we could get almost one and one-half frames per second and thought we were really something…..LOL Oh, and we were manually focusing as well!
    Very well said. Were getting sharp images a challenge on your Nikon F?
  • kyoshinikonkyoshinikon Posts: 411Member
    edited January 2014
    Lol I can get a good "decisive moment" on my speed graphic. Like Golf said it is the Tecnique.

    In fact the burst on the D800 may be a curse. If you spray it it may get every shot good but the exact moment you needed.
    Post edited by kyoshinikon on
    “To photograph is to hold one’s breath, when all faculties converge to capture fleeting reality. It’s at that precise moment that mastering an image becomes a great physical and intellectual joy.” - Bresson
  • photohawkphotohawk Posts: 1Member
    I have covered sports including football, volleyball, basketball, minor league baseball and various triathlon events. I have had the fortune to use a d70, d300, d7100, and even a d4 and I would have to say "focus speed acquisition" is far more important to me than fps. If you put a poor quality lens on a d4 and fail to pre-focus or select the wrong focusing points you will simply end up with 6-8 poor images. Likewise if you put high quality glass on a d70 and understand how to time your shot properly then 1 shot is all you need.
  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    edited January 2014
    For those that wish to have more "keepers" when shooting fast. This might be something for you to consider doing.

    Direct Youtube Link: How To Use AF-On And Back Button Autofocus

    Post edited by Golf007sd on
    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,280Member
    edited January 2014
    I recommend using the AF-ON button as well. It's too bad using the AF-ON doesn't work any differently than the shutter button, with the 4FPS D800. Focus priority does nothing, the camera still shoots away whether focus is even remotely close to the subject in the selected focus box or not.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • adamzadamz Posts: 842Moderator
    Tommie - sure for sports it does matter but for weddings? A kiss lasts couple of seconds, vial even minutes, even the quick moment of putting a ring on finger gives you plenty of time.
    Wildlife - that's a different story. Big mammals - I could shoot them with 1-2fps, small ones - it's all about predicting where they will move, birds - in flight fps is important as much as focus aquisition, birds seating - 1-2fps is enough, unless you shoot hummingbirds (but that is a different story).
  • adamzadamz Posts: 842Moderator
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,396Moderator
    edited January 2014
    @jshickele

    The images were sharp for the day. If one examines some of the "reportage" images of the 1960's, in particular a book entitled "Family of Man" http://www.amazon.com/Family-Man-Edward-Steichen/dp/0870703412/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1389105163&sr=1-1&keywords=family+of+man one sees that in film days we got the image and content was the most important concern, if it was in focus, that was desirable, but, at ISO 160 (ASA 160) for color transparencies, we were shooting often with our backs to the wall. Thus, a little lack of clarity was often acceptable.

    For commercial shots of course, the technical quality had to be absolutely first rate…..

    And, today, with many venues, as stated by others, 1-2 FPS is quite adequate, in fact I often shoot single frame at a rate of two per second as the camera does this well.
    Post edited by Msmoto on
    Msmoto, mod
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    As someone who used to shoot indoor sports at 0.5fps at 400 ASA in B&W, (sometimes "pushed" to 800) I can say definitively "yes". As others have said, it's all in the timing.

    Now if you are a pro, and need to "keep up with the Jones'es" you might want your weapon to be at least as good as the guy/gal next to you, if you catch my drift.
  • ThomasHortonThomasHorton Posts: 323Member
    However, in the old days, hand cranking a Nikon F, we could get almost one and one-half frames per second and thought we were really something…..LOL Oh, and we were manually focusing as well!
    In the snow too... after walking up hill both ways.

    But we were thankful. :)
    Gear: Camera obscura with an optical device which transmits and refracts light.
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    I´m using AF-ON button to - like the man says it takes some time to get used to. But once you get it you don't want to go back :-)
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited January 2014
    henrik1963" I´m using AF-ON button to -


    http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/140/using-af-on-vs-trigger-button-for-auto-focus/p1

    Sorry, for some reason the thread is closed

    any one know why ??

    Post edited by sevencrossing on
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