Nikon not worried by 3rd Party Lenses..Why ?

PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,847Member
edited February 2014 in Nikon DSLR cameras
Well of course they are not as with every new camera and firmware update less and less 3rd party stuff works with Nikon. Just sold a 18-200 and 18-250 Sigma because did not work with D7100 ...Lcd timers would not function. fine on the old D7000 . Similar problems with grips and on D800. :@)
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Comments

  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    but they might start to get worried, when people start selling Nikon DSLRs to buy third party cameras to match there third party lenses

  • proudgeekproudgeek Posts: 1,422Member
    They may not be worried about the Sigma's and Tokina's of the world, but the fact that they're not licensing their AF technology to higher-end manufacturers like Zeiss (do I have that correct?) tells you what they are worried about.
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    They don't license their technology to Tokina and Sigma neither.
  • proudgeekproudgeek Posts: 1,422Member
    I admit I know little about this. So how is it that those lenses can auto focus and Zeiss lenses cannot?
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    Sigma and Tokina reverse engineer Nikon and Canon cameras and design their lenses accordingly. That is why you hear numerous complaints about Sigma lenses not working well with Nikon cameras introduced after the lenses was produced.

    Sigma has responded to this with an additional USB add on where you can update Sigma lenses for new Nikon cameras. The 35mm 1.4 Art Lens has this. Time will tell if this works.

    Of course, Schneider and Zeiss avoid this problem completely by not producing auto-focus F-mount lenses.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    Pistn, did you reach out to sigma? We've heard pretty good things about their customer service and perhaps you just needed a firmware upgrade.

    It is a bit of a blessing in disguise though to be honest that lens has nowhere near the optics to compliment the D7100's awesome sensor.
  • proudgeekproudgeek Posts: 1,422Member
    jshickele thanks for the explanation. I guess that's why they're not that worried. Users who want to go off brand have the choice of either losing AF or relying on a hacked AF system. I'm guessing a large percentage of Nikon users (myself included) rely pretty heavily on AF.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,847Member
    sigma said its a " feature" ie the lcd will not go below 60 seconds in any mode ...great feature runs the battery down in about 1/3 the time....yes the 18-140 is much better ..I dont beleive in primes no good for weddings.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,006Member
    I admit I know little about this. So how is it that those lenses can auto focus and Zeiss lenses cannot?
    Because Zeiss doesn't make any AF lenses for the F-mount.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,199Member
    When Nikon says it is not worried about third party lenses it must be because Nikon is looking at some data they have which indicates they don't lose many sales to third party lens makers. I wonder about the accuracy of such data. It seems to me Sigma will be taking some sales away from Nikon with its Art glass series. First the 35mm f1.4, then the soon to be released 50mm f1.4 Art and next I expect an 85mm f1.4 Art. You also have the 18 to 35mm f1.8 for DX shooters. I am suggesting Nikon will be losing more sales to third parties in the future than it has in the past.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,847Member
    Quote....." I am suggesting Nikon will be losing more sales to third parties in the future than it has in the past.


    And I am suggesting that the firmware to reject thrid party stuff will become more aggressive which it has over the last 12 months
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    Quote....." I am suggesting Nikon will be losing more sales to third parties in the future than it has in the past.

    And I am suggesting that the firmware to reject thrid party stuff will become more aggressive which it has over the last 12 months
    That is actually false - the D7100 had some new "software" and chips that caused the issue with the newer AF system it had. Sigma and Tamron already have the fix in place from what the local cam shop said. Similar issues with all the new bodies. No one should expect Nikon or others to go out of their way to help 3rd party manufactures, but the conspiracy theory of corporate boogeymen is laughable. They don't even have the time to fix or even notice a sensor issue of the D800/600 and all the other issues recently. To actually believe they have their ducks in line so well, that they have time to masterfully create issues for 3rd party companies, is a bit absurd. They are just trying to keep their heads above water like the rest of us.
    I am suggesting Nikon will be losing more sales to third parties in the future than it has in the past.
    Actually it have been reversed. Nikon did loose out on lens sales but not much anymore - why? DSLR packages. It use to be that you bought a body always separate and some stores would "bundle" lenses with it. Now Nikon just does it instead of the store.

    One just needs to understand just how many lenses are sold at different levels to understand why they are not afraid. They make more on the cheap consumer lenses and sell gobs more of those. Loosing out on some low margin sales of the "pro-style" lenses isn't really a big loss.

    Consider this:
    35mm 1.4g lens has sold somewhere in the ball park of 29,500 lenses worldwide.
    18-105VR - 4,634,822 Lenses sold.

    If Nikon looses out on a couple thousand sales to Sigma for a 35mm 1.4 - what's the big deal? Nothing. ;)

    One of my favorite sites to find these numbers.
    http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/serialno.html
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    Can anyone explain why there are no third party bodies
    you know an Dx F mount camera 24 mp, 8-10 fps, big buffer pro build and controls, high ISO
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    Cameras are much more difficult to produce with the numerous complexities relating to system integration and individual components. For example, Sigma produces cameras which have not gained much traction in the market.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,199Member
    edited February 2014

    TTJ: Good point. The numbers just aren't there for Nikon to worry about.

    sevencrossing: Surely could be done and would give any third party immediate off-the-shelf access to a complete range of lenses so they wouldn't even need to produce any of their own. However, Nikon must have a patent on the F mount and would sue any third party which tried to market a body with the F mount unless Nikon licensed that mount to them which it won't do. Nikon's extensive line of "legacy lenses" is a great asset the company is not going to share with any third party by giving them such easy access.
    Post edited by donaldejose on
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    I think that patent has since run out. Otherwise they would just obtain cease and desist injunctions against third party lens manufacturers and be done with it.
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    TTJ, your point on comparable lens sales also points out that in many ways, users like us over estimate our own significance to Nikon.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited February 2014
    The F mount came out in 1959 So I think the patent it would have expired in 1979
    the AF came out in 1986 and would have expired in 2006
    there will be patents on later improvements but how do third party lenses get round these ?
    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • shawninoshawnino Posts: 453Member
    7-xing: I'm not a patents lawyer but I think in many cases it's analogous to you patenting the lamp and me coming out with a more energy efficient bulb, you patenting the TV and me coming out with good programming, ... you coming out with the mount and me coming out with good glass.

    When Sigma's actual AF came too close to the OEM's AF, they were indeed sued by Nikon. (I think it was settled before trial.)
  • shawninoshawnino Posts: 453Member
    Or was it their VR? One or the other, can't recall.
  • What was the question? Why Nikon is not worried about 3rd party lenses?

    Who said that? A Nikon person? Simple answer: Because it would make them look stupid if they said something different, i.e. "Yeah, we're following the development on the 3rd party lens market and I must say: We're pretty scared of losing sales. The quality has become awesome. We really need a strategy here."

    Why would anyone philosophize about "reasons" for them not to be worried, just because some corporate person said they weren't? Of course they are. It would be stupid not to.

    Concerning the numbers @TaoTeJared is quoting (great source, thanks!): Yeah, the volume is small if you look at the 35mm goldring prime. Then again, keep in mind that the margin on a ~1500-dollar prime lens is rather big compared to a consumer-level zoom. But it changes quite a lot if you look at things like the 50mm 1.4 or the 24-70/2.8.

    You can bet they are worried. And they are right, too.
  • DaveyJDaveyJ Posts: 885Member
    Based on the Sigma 10-20mm I just bought they should be! Real quality lens at a lower price. And they seem to work just fine on my Nikon DSLRs! Now I am looking at a 150-500 Sigma that has ratings that are very good. I just can't afford the new Nikon 80-400 VR.
  • Parke1953Parke1953 Posts: 455Member
    DaveyJ just save for it. Took me 7 or 8 months and then got $400 off. You are already over a third of the way there if your going to get the 150-500mm Sigma (almost half way there if you count the rebate). You wont be sorry. Is the Sigma that close to the Nikon. I don't know?
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    I wonder where the "quote" came from. Do we have a source for this?
  • WestEndBoyWestEndBoy Posts: 1,456Member
    I wonder where the "quote" came from. Do we have a source for this?
    It is in his post.
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