D300s Successor-D400, what and when

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  • kyoshinikonkyoshinikon Posts: 411Member
    edited December 2012
    What I wonder is that now the D600 is here how will it's price point effect the D300s or D7000's successor?  I am convinced that accountants (who know nothing about photography) are the ones who call the shots on features vs price. My hobby is model railroading and that industry is going downhill not from the lack of consumers but because these dumb accountants who run the companies think they can sell a single number prototype locomotive to consumers like coca-cola cans at $400 a pop. 

    We all can agree on 2 things... Nikon needs to update the D300s and the D7000 falls short in a few areas (the ones mentioned in my 1st post)
    Post edited by kyoshinikon on
    “To photograph is to hold one’s breath, when all faculties converge to capture fleeting reality. It’s at that precise moment that mastering an image becomes a great physical and intellectual joy.” - Bresson
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,481Moderator
    edited December 2012


    My opinion ? I think anything around $2-2.5k for an APS-C when there is a FF star like D800 for $3k would be unreasonable. Even the bird guys will drop the crop advantage and go FF. I know I would. Any APS-C over $2k is likely to stay on shelves a long long time.
    OK, well we will wait and see the answer to that one.  There is going to be a lot of 'I told you so' comments on this thread when we know for sure.  It's only a question of who is going to be right and who isn't.

    I don't agree about the D800 and D400 being interchangeable based soley on price like you said above BTW Paperman.  Like I said before it seems it will be a mini D4 which is designed to be the best FX action body whereas the D800 is a more general purpose camera with it's excellent qualities in quite different areas of performance.

    We'll see - hopefully fairly soon!
    Post edited by spraynpray on
    Always learning.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited December 2012

    sprayandpray said

    "Like I said before it seems it will be a mini D4 which is designed to be the best FX action body whereas the D800 is a more general purpose camera with it's excellent qualities in quite different areas of performance".

     

    I would agree there is gap between the D4 and the D800 but I am not so sure that gap will be filled by a Dx camera.  My gut feeling is, we will  see somthing like a D800. Fx but with the bias toward a higher ISO. The  fps being address by a battery pack

    other things that would be nice:  built  in pocket wizard and a more affordable full remote control system

     

     

     

    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • SquamishPhotoSquamishPhoto Posts: 608Member

     My gut feeling is, we will  see somthing like a D800. Fx but with the bias toward a higher ISO. The  fps being address by a battery pack

    other things that would be nice:  built  in pocket wizard and a more affordable full remote control system    
    Im with you on this completely. 
    Mike
    D3 • D750 • 14-24mm f2.8 • 35mm f1.4A • PC-E 45mm f2.8 • 50mm f1.8G • AF-D 85mm f1.4 • ZF.2 100mm f2 • 200mm f2 VR2
  • adamzadamz Posts: 842Moderator
    @golf007sd - maybe Your needs are answered by the D7000 & D4 combo. mine are not by D3s and D800. I love the images produced by d800 and I love the fact that I can crop them heavily and still get a decent 12MPx. But I don't like the speed neither the buffer size (two things connected to each other). 
    I would love to see a d400 with 24MPx DX sensor and D3s or even D3 iso abilities. why? because I need reach. My d3s is an excellent "wedding" camera or any reportage style camera. My D800 is good as a travel cam, but it sucks when it comes to wildlife, where Your buffer end in seconds and it takes ages to make it workable once again. I don't need 12fps, but wouldn't mind to have a 36snap buffer and at least 8fps w/o grip. 
    why not D7000? I need bigger and more robust camera. I had d90 - sure it's not the same - and it was too small for my hands, and also to fragile to use w/o protection outside (though it could take a lot). Moreover, I need 100% viewfinder coverage. I don't care about scenic nor portrait modes, but need dedicated buttons for iso, af locks, etc. I need magnesium body... why... c-z my camera occasionally hits the rocks or concrete. It's a tool for me, and it has to work in all conditions under heavy usage. I don't need flashlight... maybe occasionally, when I don't wanna carry Pocket Wizzard (PW) and my remote flash sees my camera.
     
    +1 mike - PW would be awesome.  
  • LorenzoLorenzo Posts: 14Member
    What is the likelihood we will get a DX body with an AF system that can autofocus reliably at F8 max aperture like the D600/D800/D4? If we got a capable AF system with F8 capabilities and killer high ISO I'd be in heaven....don't need any more pixels
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,493Member
    It is highly likely that if there is a D400 that it will have a DX version of the D4/D800 focusing system.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • Golf007sdGolf007sd Posts: 2,840Moderator
    Yes Adam, the D7000 & D4 have done an amazing job given for me. My feed back to NRF comes from my Own personal usage and experience. I'm sure there are plenty of different body...and combination, that will work for each of us, I don't question that at all. Am I being to bold in saying that, given Nikon's current line up, a user needs can be meet....maybe. Note: I said "can." Will the D400 be the one that fills the gap, as sevencrossing pointed to between the D4 & D800...I really don't believe so for the reason he stated.

    I do not think that there is a single camera manufacture that has delivered everything a photographer seeks. Just this past week I had a tourist hand me his $19,000+ Hasselblad H4D-40 /w 80MM....and for the type of photograph I was doing that day (shooting flying birds at the beach), this camera was Not it (have a look at this bodies spec to see why).

    Currently, I have a few things I would like built into a given body...ie GPS, PW, wireless, etc..etc. Some of this gear I have as an add-on, yet some are to over priced (i.e. the WT-5) to buy. The question that Nikon has to answer is: what to keep in and out in order to obtain a price range that the consumer is willing to pay. A pro-built body: all magnesium, 100% view finder, 8-FPS, dual-memmory slots, will not come in at a price point that is intended to replace the D300/D300s user.

    I have to agree with Squamish: "Personally, I hate these speculative threads..." 

    Only time will tell if and what the D400 will give us. For now...enjoy what you have and share with us what your next click has to offer. Cheers...
    D4 & D7000 | Nikon Holy Trinity Set + 105 2.8 Mico + 200 F2 VR II | 300 2.8G VR II, 10.5 Fish-eye, 24 & 50 1.4G, 35 & 85 1.8G, 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR I SB-400 & 700 | TC 1.4E III, 1.7 & 2.0E III, 1.7 | Sigma 35 & 50 1.4 DG HSM | RRS Ballhead & Tripods Gear | Gitzo Monopod | Lowepro Gear | HDR via Promote Control System |
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    @ Golf007sd : "I have to agree with Squamish: "Personally, I hate these speculative threads..." "

    Not me, I love interesting speculations :-)

    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • PhotobugPhotobug Posts: 5,748Member
    One year after buying my D300 (Nov 2007) I started putting money away for its replacement.  Right now I could afford to buy a D800 but that is not what I want.  The last two years have been hard waiting for a Nikon D400.  Here are my requirements:
    --D300 size body.  D600 body is too small, that right hand grip does not work.  Having used a D7000, D90, D200, and D300 I much prefer the D300 size body.
    --51 point AF
    --Love the two settings on the left control knob that is lockable
    --Good weather seals
    --Ability to use ISO 12,000 and pass Pop Photography low noise setting
    --I need 100% viewfinder coverage
    --Minimal poly plastics and the body needs magnesium.
    --Pop up flash to trigger an off camera flash
    --GPS does not have to be built into camera
    --20 to 24 megapixels....please
    --Big buffer like my D300
    --CF memory cards preferred since I own six of them.
    --Single or dual card slots
    --APC sensor.  Willing to consider FF and willing to sell my 17-55mm F/2.8 if necessary to move to FF.
    --6 to 8 frames per second is fine.  Prefer 8 frames without a battery grip.
    --Battery grip like the Nikon one made for the D300...only go easy on the price.
    --Easy LV mode activation, although I don't use it that often easy activation is a plus.
    --3.2" LCD on rear, higher the pixel count the better
    --Forget those scenic modes, save that for the consumer models
    --Watch the weight, don't get bloated
    --Of course it would be nice to see a new updated 17-55mm F2.8mm VRIII DX lens announced in 2013 for an upgrade path
    --Good seals LCD on top
    --150K ~200K shutter guarantee
    --You want to make us D300 and D300S users happy, make the new D400 body compatible with the current D300s battery grip
    --Tweak that control button on the camera back.  The D800 and D4 control buttons are far better
    --Of course a built in motor drive for all lens ensures the use of older Nikon glass.
    --Love the new down angle on the shutter release on the D600, D800, and D4.  But please don't give us that lousy small D600 grip for the right hand.  The D300 grip is so nice when you are shooting pictures for hours on end.
    --Ensure that the tripod socket is super robust to allow the use of the new shoulder straps that connect onto the tripod socket.  I don't want to worry about my $2000 D400 + 17-55mm F/2.8 lens crashing to the ground due to the tripod socket ripping out of the camera.
    --Next update for AF or as least as good as the D800/D4.
    --Next update for exposure system as well.  Then the Pros will buy the D400 as their backups.

    I am sure there are some more criteria that I have overlooked.

    This is my first post to this conference and 2nd overall so let me know if I need to change things for the future.

    Come on Nikon, get us our new D400 and then sit back and watch them fly off the dealers shelf.
    D750 & D7100 | 24-70 F2.8 G AF-S ED, 70-200 F2.8 AF VR, TC-14E III, TC-1.7EII, 35 F2 AF D, 50mm F1.8G, 105mm G AF-S VR | Backup & Wife's Gear: D5500 & Sony HX50V | 18-140 AF-S ED VR DX, 55-300 AF-S G VR DX |
    |SB-800, Amaran Halo LED Ring light | MB-D16 grip| Gitzo GT3541 + RRS BH-55LR, Gitzo GM2942 + Sirui L-10 | RRS gear | Lowepro, ThinkTank, & Hoodman gear | BosStrap | Vello Freewave Plus wireless Remote, Leica Lens Cleaning Cloth |
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,493Member
    It is very (as in 99%) unlikely that the MB-D10 would be compatible with the D400, battery laws in Japan changed, and devices that use EN-EL3e batteries can no longer be sold there. Nikon has never kept backwards compatibility with an older grip in a new generation of cameras. If anything it would use the same grip as the D800. The D400 will likely use the same EN-EL18 used by the D7000, D600 and D800.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • PhotobugPhotobug Posts: 5,748Member
    Thanks PB_PM.  That was wishful thinking about the MB-D10 being compatible with the D400.  I did forget the impact of the batteries.  I knew that and just missed that point.

    The EN-EL18 works for me.  I had already given in to selling off my 2 extra EN-EL3e's when I sell my D300.
    D750 & D7100 | 24-70 F2.8 G AF-S ED, 70-200 F2.8 AF VR, TC-14E III, TC-1.7EII, 35 F2 AF D, 50mm F1.8G, 105mm G AF-S VR | Backup & Wife's Gear: D5500 & Sony HX50V | 18-140 AF-S ED VR DX, 55-300 AF-S G VR DX |
    |SB-800, Amaran Halo LED Ring light | MB-D16 grip| Gitzo GT3541 + RRS BH-55LR, Gitzo GM2942 + Sirui L-10 | RRS gear | Lowepro, ThinkTank, & Hoodman gear | BosStrap | Vello Freewave Plus wireless Remote, Leica Lens Cleaning Cloth |
  • LorenzoLorenzo Posts: 14Member
    The Nikon V1, D7000, D600 and D800 use the en-el15 battery which I hope Nikon keeps around
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,493Member
    Yes that was my mistake, I meant the EN-EL15.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • kyoshinikonkyoshinikon Posts: 411Member
    edited December 2012
    "Love the two settings on the left control knob that is lockable"

    The lock would have been nice on the D600 if it had actually worked...

    "Ability to use ISO 12,000 and pass Pop Photography low noise setting"

    Ain't going to be usable... That is Just a cripple one gets with a Dx body


    To me the D600 is a complete joke. Think of a crudely built D7000 with a fx sensor in it...  For the D400 to work it at least must meet the build standards of the D300s.  People compare the build of the D7000 to the D600 because on paper they are identical but out on the field the D600 is clearly more shoddy. Wouldn't wish that camera on anyone!

    While definitely not the D300s or D4, the D7000 does still feel solid and can put up with abuse... 
    Post edited by kyoshinikon on
    “To photograph is to hold one’s breath, when all faculties converge to capture fleeting reality. It’s at that precise moment that mastering an image becomes a great physical and intellectual joy.” - Bresson
  • PatMannPatMann Posts: 2Member

    The AF system in the D800 and D4 was clearly designed to also work with DX, since it's really smaller than it should be if it were optimized for FX, so we should see it soon in the top of the line DX camera.

    I'd like to see a real pro finder this time - quality threaded attachments, viewfinder shutter. I'm tired of the light shield slipping off and losing those little clips that close off the finder when shooting on a tripod. I don't want to always use manual exposure.

    While I would be very happy with a 24mp D400, my preference would be for something similar to FX, where there are two cameras - a D400 (16mp emphasis on light) and D400x (40mp, no AA, emphasis resolution) together

    People are going to gravitate to mirrorless unless Nikon completes the DX lens range so people can use the more compact and economical DX system for all the photo applications for which they now have to move to FX or are tempted to the mirrorless EVF leaders Olympus / Fuji / Sony - 24mm f.1.4 DX, 16 or 18mm f/1.4 or 1.8 DX, 16mm f/3.5 PC-E DX, 60mm f/1.2 (DX or FX, happy with either at this focal length), 50-135 f/2.8 DX with VR, and a 12mm f/2.8 or 9.5mm f/4 with low distortion for architecture and interiors.

    If they don't want to produce these lenses for DX, at least produce them for their new compact mirrorless APS-C camera with a nice new mount - make it clear they want to dominate this market from the get-go.

  • PhotobugPhotobug Posts: 5,748Member
    Thanks for the correction on the comment regarding the battery.

    "Love the two settings on the left control knob that is lockable"

    The lock would have been nice on the D600 if it had actually worked...

    Okay:  what doesn't work?  I have read several reviews and no one said there was an issue with the lock.

    "Ability to use ISO 12,000 and pass Pop Photography low noise setting"

    Ain't going to be usable... That is Just a cripple one gets with a Dx body.

    With the improvements Canon has done with DX bodies Nikon is gong to half to step up and match or beat Canon.  If Canon can get the better ratings so can Nikon.




    D750 & D7100 | 24-70 F2.8 G AF-S ED, 70-200 F2.8 AF VR, TC-14E III, TC-1.7EII, 35 F2 AF D, 50mm F1.8G, 105mm G AF-S VR | Backup & Wife's Gear: D5500 & Sony HX50V | 18-140 AF-S ED VR DX, 55-300 AF-S G VR DX |
    |SB-800, Amaran Halo LED Ring light | MB-D16 grip| Gitzo GT3541 + RRS BH-55LR, Gitzo GM2942 + Sirui L-10 | RRS gear | Lowepro, ThinkTank, & Hoodman gear | BosStrap | Vello Freewave Plus wireless Remote, Leica Lens Cleaning Cloth |
  • mk2popmk2pop Posts: 80Member
    msmoto has it down, i would be straight on the pre-order list for one 
    im waiting to replace my D90 but the D7000 just isnt cutting it, im 
    looking for at least 8fps with a top AF system and rugged body 
    D300 | D90 | D40 | F65 x2 | F75 | 10-24mm | 18-200mm | 35mm f1.8 | 50mm 1.4d | 40mm Micro | 70-300mm Tamron | 100-300mm f4 Sigma |1.4x Sigma tc | Sb400 | Sb900 x2

    Awaiting a DX D400
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,493Member
    edited December 2012
    @Photobug How exactly has Canon improved their crop sensors? All Canon crop bodies are still using the same 18MP sensor released with the 7D three and half years ago. The poorer dynamic range, smugy high ISO performance, along with low ISO banding in the shadows are atrocious. I cannot think of any Nikon DX body on the market today that don't outmatch the 18MP Canon sensors in terms of overall performance.

    Yes Nikon needs a pro DX body to go head to head with the 7D, and 7D MKII that will soon come out, but I think Nikon will have no trouble in that area if Canon keeps recycling that same old 18MP sensor.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • ansel4ansel4 Posts: 1Member
    Nikon is so sorely late to updating the D300 it is almost as if they have ceded this once owned category to Canon.  The D300 is 5+ years old.  The D300S while "only" 3 years old is actually 5 years old as the D300S did not update any of the major technology (just added video and 0.8 fps).  I am very disappointed with a 5+ year cycle.  I've downgraded to the D7000 as that was the only way to get newer technology.  They have a huge gap right now ($2K) between the D800 and the D7000.  I am not counting the D600 as it does not meet the needs of the D300 users (cripped shutter speed and sync speed).
  • soapsoap Posts: 28Member
    edited December 2012
    FX IQ is getting caught fast by DX and is likely to be mainly just the difference in DOF soon.

    FX will always have a > 1 stop noise advantage (and what that means regarding ISO, colour depth and dynamic range) over DX simply due to it collecting more light on a picture-level.
    Post edited by soap on
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    How do we re post our user photos on the new NR website? I searched for how to do it. I did have to re-register to get on the new site.
    thanks,
    DaveyJ

    It's the same as the old forum. Gravitar.com I think...
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,398Moderator
    Mmm D400 thread...asking about changing avatar photo...

    @ DaveyJ

    well...if one goes to the bottom of the main page of the forum, you should find your name in the lower right corner.  Click on this, you should now see your profile.  Under where the photo or avatar goes is another link Change My Picture.  Bu clicking here it should allow you to find a photo in your computer photo site and download to NRF.  See if this works and let us know.


    Msmoto, mod
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,481Moderator
    FX IQ is getting caught fast by DX and is soon likely to be mainly just the difference in DOF soon.
    FX will always have a > 1 stop noise advantage (and what that means regarding ISO, colour depth and dynamic range) over DX simply due to it collecting more light on a picture-level.
    FX used to have more than one stop noise advantage so given that you agree it is now only one, why do you not think it will continue to improve?
    Always learning.
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,398Moderator
    Interesting idea above about noise.  My guess is that as the sensor improvements continue, we will see almost undetectable differences in noise DX vs FX.  But, this will manifest at images of enormous size...in the several feet by several feet size.  But the limiting factor is simply the actual physical size of the sensor and the 2.25 times as many pixels on the equivalent FX vs DX sensor.  

    And, as the D400 is now coming out, hopefully, more than a year after the D4, it should have a better or at least more technically advanced sensor.  My guess is the same native ISO of 12,800 and noise almost as good even though it is a smaller size.  If not, who would buy one?
    Msmoto, mod
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