D610 Followup - D620 / D650

2

Comments

  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited March 2015
    If Appel ran Nikon, you would have update your glass every few years as well as your Camera
    Apple would quickly abandoned the F mount
    and Patent one Sigma could not copy
    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,450Moderator
    Of course the reason they make the D610 and D750 like they are is to delineate them, otherwise they are too similar. It has nothing to do with cost of parts, it is to provide a significant difference between each model. One of the most annoying cripplings of the D750 is the bracketing of the D750 being limited to whole stops above one stop. GRRRR!
    Always learning.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited March 2015
    software crippling is particularly annoying.
    Agreed
    I got rid of my iphone when they crippled the software to stop me using Google maps
    Yes, after they lost a few more customers, it was re enabled
    but please don't tell me Apple do not play the same game as everyone else

    the car manufactures play a similar game, certain relatively inexpensive options, are only available on the expensive deluxe models
    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,603Member
    Consider this: The D610 has a great sensor and the body is fine. Those wouldn't need to be replaced. Nikon could simply add a better AF module, add the improved jpg image processing software they put into the newest bodies, add a bit more buffer, etc. In other words, Nikon could simply upgrade the D610 with off the shelf parts which wouldn't cost them much money and keep the price low. I think this is what they will do. Another way to look it if for those who use the term "crippling" is that Nikon can produce a significantly better camera by simply removing some of the crippling.
    Crippling refers to sabotaging or degrading something that already exists. I think most accusations of crippling are people saying something like, "this already exists, put it in (but it will increase the price by a thousand dollars" or "this processor can do more fps (but the shutter will need to be upgraded and that costs another $250". I often think that these views are rather simplistic.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,603Member
    edited March 2015
    software crippling is particularly annoying.
    This is probably a better example of true crippling.
    Post edited by WestEndFoto on
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    I agree with WestEndFoto .. The 2 products(cameras and phones) have very different life-cycles and markets.
    Even in the Phone arena companies have tried to solve their marketplace with different strategies (Apple vs Samsung) comparing the strategy used by Apple vs Nikon has only a bit more relevance than comparing Apples vs Oranges.
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    edited March 2015
    Preventing competitors from using your products is not crippling. Crippling refers to purposefully preventing your own product from reaching its full potential in order to create market differentiation. Crippling refers to artificially creating different pricing strata even though the costs of manufacturing are the same or nearly the same.
    Many companies do that .. I am not sure if nikon does it.. I know canon does (hacked firmware to reactivate functionality) and so does intel (core unlocking by motherboard manufacturers).

    On the other hand cost of manufacture is in many cases not a big factor in the final price of a product.

    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    edited March 2015
    Upgrading the AF on the D610 seriously blurs the line between it and the D750. It's probably less a matter of cost and more a matter of *differentiation*. Nikon and Canon spend way too much time thinking about differentiation to let them blur the lines between the lines.

    @donaldjose... think about it. Lots of photographers want the D610 but they think the autofocus sucks and it really bugs them, but what are their choices? If they upgraded the AF on the D610, all of those people would buy a D610. If they don't upgrade the AF, some people will piss and moan and buy the D610 anyway, while a number of others will piss and moan and buy the D750, spending more than they had hoped.

    This is how Nikon thinks. I believe it's a crappy short-sighted way to think, but it's how it thinks. If Apple were running Nikon, they probably wouldn't make the D610 because it's not state of the art. They would make the best camera they could possibly make, sell it for more, make everyone want it, and say to hell with the low end. Apple never thinks about purposefully crippling things. Purposefully crippling things opens doors to competitors, as does pricing mediocre goods at luxury prices.

    If a new super-duper fancy AF comes out that's significantly better than that of the D750, then it could get the upgrade with a D760 while the AF of the D750 goes into the D610... possibly. Even that I doubt.
    I do agree with the principles/ideas you mention in this post. That I think is why the D70 was such a big success and why I feel the D750 will also be a big success. I think they didn't pull any punches( tech wise) for these products.
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited March 2015
    Crippling refers to artificially creating different pricing strata even though the costs of manufacturing are the same or nearly the same.
    I see no difference between Apple, Nikon or anyone else
    it is normal business practice
    Annoying yes, but perfectly normal in nearly every industry and company

    Does an
    Apple iMac with Retina 5K display Quad-core Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 1TB, 27"
    cost 500 pounds more to make than a
    Apple iMac Quad-core Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 1GB Graphics, 1TB, 27" ??

    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    I dont think that's what he is saying at all ... The new iMacs are not what he means. Even apple has not kept to the principle of creating the best product. It was really Steve Job that tried best to steer Apple in that direction. I am not sure that Apple can maintain that principle now that Steve is not there any more.
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited March 2015
    @PitchBlack you are clearly an Apple fanboy
    I am a self confessed Nikon fanboy

    I think we should leave it at that a get back on topic >:/
    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member



    *shrug* ... there's nowhere else to go
    end of thread for me :)
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,398Member
    Software crippling. That is a true fact and a real shame and just dumb in my opinion. Also, I think software upgrading should be released by Nikon whenever possible. For example, if a significant part of the newly improved high ISO ability in the latest bodies is due to a new jpg software which allows noise to be reduced deferentially throughout the frame and if that software can run on older bodies with older processors I think Nikon should offer a free firmware upgrade to do it. However, it may take more time, require more processing power, etc and not really be able to be done on older bodies without significantly degrading things like fps. If so, Nikon shouldn't offer it or offer it with a warning about the cost you pay for it. Some would take improved high ISO and be willing to give up on fps to get it. Others wouldn't. Just like Nikon prides itself on "legacy lenses" it should pride itself on "legacy bodies" by updating software whenever it can do so.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,450Moderator
    Look out of the window Donald, how any moons do you see orbiting your world? ;)

    Ain't gonna happen. Fewer people would upgrade.
    Always learning.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,450Moderator
    "I love my Dxxx but I'm not a fan of the company."

    Yeah, that is the way they are making customers feel more and more these days.
    Always learning.
  • KnockKnockKnockKnock Posts: 398Member
    I get frustrated by crippling too, but objectively or cynically speaking, i understand it. It's capitalism at work and at this point, everyone does it.

    Even on the software side, I see a lot of IT management stuff that is entirely crippled, but it doesn't feel that way. Our backup software, Veeam, has a slew of different options but one single download. If you want certain features, you buy the license that unlocks it. These are killer, valuable features that not everyone needs.

    So I guess that when I'm in my right mind, I see that features are just a value proposition. If I want more, then I need to pay for more.

    I guess some frustration is that we all see our ideal camera - if only Nikon would make it.

    In an ideal world we have build-to-order choices available to us like building a computer or a car. Choose your body on the website, choose the sensor, cpu, viewfinder, AF module and in 2 weeks it's built and delivered. Open it up and the software is base D3xxx level. If you need RAW, ⅓-stop bracketing, HDR, they're 5-dollar codes. Or, there are families of features. Basic gets you D3xxx controls. $50 Enthusiast package gets D7xxx controls. $150 Pro gets D8xx features.

    To some degree we get customization: external flash and battery grips + lenses. Sony is going this direction a little with software - buy an app which gives you x-y-z feature. Hmmm. Clearly off-topic. Sorry for the meandering.

    Back to the D620. So I'm hearing more of the same D610 from our experts, but nothing significant, probably not soon. We'd have to see major AF-improvements upstream to get D750-grade AF. I think sometimes the tech leapfrogs since the higher end model cycles are longer, but that would imply a delay before we see a D620 with 51-pt AF. Maybe the dead end of the D6xx line is the calm before the mirrorless storm. Okay. Stopping now. I'm thirsty.
    D7100, D60, 35mm f/1.8 DX, 50mm f/1.4, 18-105mm DX, 18-55mm VR II, Sony RX-100 ii
  • PhotobugPhotobug Posts: 5,528Member
    edited March 2015
    Consider this: The D610 has a great sensor and the body is fine. Those wouldn't need to be replaced. Nikon could simply add a better AF module, add the improved jpg image processing software they put into the newest bodies, add a bit more buffer, etc. In other words, Nikon could simply upgrade the D610 with off the shelf parts which wouldn't cost them much money and keep the price low. I think this is what they will do. Another way to look it if for those who use the term "crippling" is that Nikon can produce a significantly better camera by simply removing some of the crippling.
    +1 I believe the future for Nikon is an inexpensive entry level model and the engineers will find ways to do that. Lots of good post after I read this message.
    Post edited by Photobug on
    D750 & D7100 | 24-70 F2.8 G AF-S ED, 70-200 F2.8 AF VR, TC-14E III, TC-1.7EII, 35 F2 AF D, 50mm F1.8G, 105mm G AF-S VR | Backup & Wife's Gear: D5500 & Sony HX50V | 18-140 AF-S ED VR DX, 55-300 AF-S G VR DX |
    |SB-800, Amaran Halo LED Ring light | MB-D16 grip| Gitzo GT3541 + RRS BH-55LR, Gitzo GM2942 + Sirui L-10 | RRS gear | Lowepro, ThinkTank, & Hoodman gear | BosStrap | Vello Freewave Plus wireless Remote, Leica Lens Cleaning Cloth |
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,437Member
    "I love my Dxxx but I'm not a fan of the company."

    Yeah, that is the way they are making customers feel more and more these days.
    Indeed. Not that most of the other major camera/electronics makers are much better. For better or for worse these companies seem to spend more time and money on social media and PR staff than actually figuring out what customers want, or building solid products in the first place.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,181Member
    edited March 2015
    So which camera company is closest to the "Apple Ideal" ? Or maybe we need a new thread ?
    Post edited by heartyfisher on
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,437Member
    So which camera company is closest to the "Apple Ideal" ? Or maybe we need a new thread ?
    Why not just let sleeping dogs lie?
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,450Moderator
    Personally I think it's pretty much all been said now. I do like @KnockKnock 's idea of modular pay-per-feature firmware so long as the prices were sensible. I would love to be able to build my own body too - D750 sensor in a D800 body would do nicely for me.
    Always learning.
  • nukuEX2nukuEX2 Posts: 178Member
    edited March 2015
    I think given the current trend in numbering I think D650 is a logical step

    Specs your guess is good as mine but if I want to make a guess.

    "new" 24 MP FX CMOS with no OLPF
    Expeed 4 processor
    D750 AF module
    ISO equal to D7200
    FPS 7FPS
    Continuous shooting 21 RAW 14 bit and 150 Jpg fine.
    All the other specs same as D750 and D7200 .

    What, A guy can dream right? :p
    Post edited by nukuEX2 on
    D7200, 40mm Micro Nikkor f2.8, Lowepro AW Hatchback 16,
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,450Moderator
    edited March 2015
    Care to add a price and a theory as to what happens to the D750 and D810 Nuk?
    Post edited by spraynpray on
    Always learning.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    D750 sensor in a D800 body would do nicely for me.
    Why on earth would Nikon cripple the D800 by giving it only 24 mp :) =))
    S&P please do not take this seriously :)
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,450Moderator
    D750 sensor in a D800 body would do nicely for me.
    Why on earth would Nikon cripple the D800 by giving it only 24 mp :) =))
    S&P please do not take this seriously :)
    No, seriously seven, removing some of the crippling and putting the D750 in a D800 body would be a sensible upgrade if they were to do the things Nuk suggested to the D610. The next upgrade to the D8XX could be 54mp so it would still have plenty of delineation between the D7XX and the D8XX. Nobody said put the 24mp sensor in the D800 instead of the 36mp.

    Have you shot the D750? is is not too shabby I can tell you! It beats the D800 in low light too.

    Always learning.
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