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  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,004Member
    *crickets* ... *crickets*... *crickets*

    Yeah. And why do we care about what CNET says again???
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    Uh, they have 200 million readers? So it's good advertising for Nikon, which is good for those of us that have a substantial investment in Nikon systems. That's why we care again :-)
  • ThomasHortonThomasHorton Posts: 323Member
    Not everything has to be a competition.

    Gear: Camera obscura with an optical device which transmits and refracts light.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,004Member
    +1 @ ThomasHorton
    Uh, they have 200 million readers? So it's good advertising for Nikon, which is good for those of us that have a substantial investment in Nikon systems. That's why we care again :-)
    Unless I'm a Nikon stock holder - which considering how much their stock has fallen, I'm happily not - I don't think it matters much one way or another if they are #1 on some cheesy jack of all trades tech site. Readership is nice, but I doubt 200 million people are going to leap out of their seats and order a Nikon camera just because CNET says they are #1.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,042Member
    I would imagine that Nikon will sell more cameras through CNET than many photography magazines. Perhaps not D810s, but more Nikon 1s and DX DSLRs.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,004Member
    edited July 2015
    People still read magazines in 2015? :p On a serious note, yes I'm sure some people will buy Nikon cameras based on those results. The question is does it matter if they are #1 based on some arbitrary results on a website? To me no. I didn't buy Nikon based on such things. I guess some people do though...
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    edited July 2015
    If you read the article you will see they quoted DxO extensively and showed that even though canon had more MP, Nikon beat their pants off in IQ. Rather well written article and very pro Nikon. And given the wide coverage CNET has it means the next time a soccer mom or dad decides to buy a new DSLR at Costco, they won't just go for the higher MP one, they'll think twice about image quality.
    Post edited by Ironheart on
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,004Member
    edited July 2015
    If you read the article you will see they quoted DxO extensively
    A site that I consider almost as worthless, so that isn't helping your cause...

    As noted before, I'm not a stockholder, so whether Nikon lives or dies does not concern me beyond the possibility of new lenses, which I don't really need anyway.

    Yes I agree that Nikon is better, but that is based on experience with their cameras, not on arbitrary results from DxO mark or the opinion of some editor on CNET.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • haroldpharoldp Posts: 984Member
    These image sensor rankings depend on how different parameters are weighted. These weightings may not match up to what matters to each of us , and how we shoot.

    The D5s v D810 decision for most folks is based on what brand is on the stack of lenses in their basement.
    Those who have not yet invested are unlikely to start with either The D5s or D810, and if they do, hopefully understand their needs.

    For those who understand, that choice is unlikely to be sensor based.

    ... H
    D810, D3x, 14-24/2.8, 50/1.4D, 24-70/2.8, 24-120/4 VR, 70-200/2.8 VR1, 80-400 G, 200-400/4 VR1, 400/2.8 ED VR G, 105/2 DC, 17-55/2.8.
    Nikon N90s, F100, F, lots of Leica M digital and film stuff.

  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    You guys entirely miss the point of how PR works at a consumer products company.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter
    The article wasn't aimed at the serious enthusiast or the semi-pro. It was aimed at the uneducated consumer who buys the vast majority of the DX cameras that actually drive profits and revenue at Nikon. It's mindshare pure and simple. It's also mindshare for folks who buy point and shoots. "I heard from Susie that Nikon has better image quality than canon. Her big camera takes awesome pictures. I'm going to grab this coolpix rather than the powershot because I want to be cool like Susie."
    I do care if Nikon lives or dies, because I have $20K invested in their systems and I want to buy more $-)
  • heartyfisherheartyfisher Posts: 3,172Member
    Remember the days when nikon sensors were weaker than canons? Didnt make too much difference cos i liked that it gave me pictures better than my abilities. .. love the new nikons though.. happy that there is good compertition that makes them keep pushing the envelope...
    Moments of Light - D610 D7K S5pro 70-200f4 18-200 150f2.8 12-24 18-70 35-70f2.8 : C&C very welcome!
    Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.

  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,042Member
    You guys entirely miss the point of how PR works at a consumer products company.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter
    The article wasn't aimed at the serious enthusiast or the semi-pro. It was aimed at the uneducated consumer who buys the vast majority of the DX cameras that actually drive profits and revenue at Nikon. It's mindshare pure and simple. It's also mindshare for folks who buy point and shoots. "I heard from Susie that Nikon has better image quality than canon. Her big camera takes awesome pictures. I'm going to grab this coolpix rather than the powershot because I want to be cool like Susie."
    I do care if Nikon lives or dies, because I have $20K invested in their systems and I want to buy more $-)
    Agreed. This is good PR and it is important. Also, it reinforces that there is more to a sensor than megapixels.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,042Member
    I have read the CNET article now and am prepared to offer an informed opinion.

    The CNET article matters not because it is a CNET article but because it is quoting DxO Labs.

    So in my view it matters quite a lot.

    First, marketing. While DxO certainly has its own agenda, it has no reason to prefer some camera makers over others. Whatever its agenda is, it will be sabotaged if it is not seen as credible on these tests. Unless you subscribe to conspiracy theories, DxO deserves credibility on this point. However, I am not going to try to convince somebody that believes in conspiracy theories as I have no interest in travelling to another planet. I will stay on this planet where most consumers will see this as a credible third party endorsement of Nikon. They may take it with a grain of salt, but it is going to be a much smaller grain of salt than if Nikon or Canon is making a claim. If I am invested in a Canon system, am I going to change to Nikon because of this? Certainly not! However, it is good advertising for Nikon which will either enable them to sell more cameras or charge more or both. Yes, we all want to pay less, but if we are invested in a system, we want our key supplier to be profitable. It is a small price to pay for continues support of the Nikon system and greater volume may even result in lower prices and greater profits will result in more R&D.

    Second, substantive quality as it matters to a photographer. There are many attributes of sensor performance that add up to overall sensor performance. It is subjective which attributes matter most. If you are like me, low light performance is secondary to noise performance because I am often controlling my light or using a tripod and shooting at ISO 100 when IQ really matters. Even more important is dynamic range. If you are a sports action and news photographer, low light performance likely trumps everything, though dynamic range will still be important. And I am not saying that tests are all that matter. Real world testing by people like us matter. However, the views of Nikon Rumours contributors are merely anecdotal as none of us have the resources that DxO has – however, on a high level our anecdotal views do seem consistent with DxO. What is key is:

    1.
    Multiple attributes are tested.
    2.
    The attributes being tested are disclosed.
    3.
    The tests are performed in a scientific matter, meaning that the tests and the results can be reproduced by others (though DxO may not disclose the exact nature of the tests for commercial reasons).

    I am not aware of anybody that approaches DxO on its rigorous approach to the above (though I hold a lot of respect for Nasim at Photographylife). If you are going to criticize DxO, I think you should be prepared to offer a better alternative (and I would love to see an improvement on DxO, because DxO is already a very good place to start). I rarely hear about a better alternative from people that complain about DxO – just general negativity. Our “tests” are neither scientific nor rigorous enough to form a credible alternative to DxO. Our own views our simply just views and while they qualify as useful anecdotes, I am going to start with a DxO score before the view of somebody on a forum that I have never met and where it is difficult (at best) to judge the credibility of their views.

    So yes, the CNET matters because DxO matters, and it matters quite a lot.

  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,004Member
    edited July 2015

    First, marketing. While DxO certainly has its own agenda, it has no reason to prefer some camera makers over others.
    You might want to check the camera and lens makers that sponsor and support DxO marks, aka Nikon, Fuji, Sigma, and Sony for example. Notice that Canon, Pentax etc are not on that list. DxO is far from impartial. It's not a conspiracy, and DxO doesn't even try to hide it.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    The Sens Score folks are as neutral as you can get. They take no money from any manufacturer and buy all of their gear retail. And they are Swiss.

    http://www.senscore.org/

    They rate the Nikons 20-30% above the Canons.

    PetaPixel piles on:
    http://petapixel.com/2015/07/08/5ds-handed-highest-dxomark-score-for-a-canon-but-still-trails-nikon-and-sony/

    Not sure where you found DxOmark sponsor information, would love to see some sources.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,042Member

    First, marketing. While DxO certainly has its own agenda, it has no reason to prefer some camera makers over others.
    You might want to check the camera and lens makers that sponsor and support DxO marks, aka Nikon, Fuji, Sigma, and Sony for example. Notice that Canon, Pentax etc are not on that list. DxO is far from impartial. It's not a conspiracy, and DxO doesn't even try to hide it.
    Which list are you referring to?
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,004Member
    edited July 2015
    Seems DxO took that page down (I wonder why!), I just get a 404 error for the page the list used to be on. (It comes up if you Google Search DxO Sponsor but returns a 404 error once you click through).
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • MaxBerlinMaxBerlin Posts: 86Member
    edited July 2015
    What's good for Nikon ecosystem is good for Nikon users. I disagree with Thom though. Nikon better get in competition with itself and Sony, not only in IQ but usability and innovation. If every noob picks up a Sony and believes it's the end all, it is bad for Nikon users down the road. And if Sony fixed the lossy cRAW, I could forgive Sony for the past and at least be willing to look at their gear one more time.

    Ironheart - thanks for the senscore link. DXO's numbers are imaginary so I don't get too excited about them.
    Post edited by MaxBerlin on
    My non-commercial blog:

    https://sonyvnikon.wordpress.com/
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,069Moderator
    It may be even worse than that - I think the majority of sales are to people who don't know anything about cRAW problems or many other deeper details. It is probably price, sensor size, handling and obvious spec that most buyers go for.
    Always learning.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 1,831Member
    edited July 2015
    Well I discovered one thing DXO are french ...so thats the end of them for me ...killed Diana, crashed Concorde and cannot keep the chanel tunnel open 24/7...
    Thanks but no thanks
    Post edited by Pistnbroke on
  • paulrpaulr Posts: 1,176Member
    Wow thats quite a statement, I bet you don't eat Snails and Frogs either.
    Camera, Lens and Tripod and a few other Bits
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    http://www.dxo.com/us/company
    "For well over a decade, the scientists and engineers at DxO have been advancing the way the world takes photographs. Headquartered in Paris and San Francisco, we also have offices in Taiwan, Japan and Korea."

    I will note that their trademarks are in France and their patents are in the US.

    The bigger crime is those damn electrical receptacles you Brits insist upon using. :))
  • paulrpaulr Posts: 1,176Member
    edited July 2015
    You lost me there Ironheart
    "The bigger crime is those damn electrical receptacles you Brits insist upon using".
    Mind you I am from Yorkshire
    PS Thats a little part of The UK.
    Post edited by paulr on
    Camera, Lens and Tripod and a few other Bits
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    edited July 2015
    The UK standard plug is twice the size of the continental Europe and North American one. It takes up half my suitcase when I travel:
    image
    vs
    image
    Sorry my lame attempt at humor was misunderstood :-/
    Post edited by Ironheart on
  • paulrpaulr Posts: 1,176Member
    edited July 2015
    Ha Got you. Receptacle Foxed me. Strangely enough we are the only country that use 230v Medical fact The same electric power that can stop or confuse our Heart rhythm Now that is crazy.
    Post edited by paulr on
    Camera, Lens and Tripod and a few other Bits
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