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At Nikon USA - D600 is Lowest rated DSLR. Ouch!
MikeGunter
Posts: 543Member
Hi all,
Reading the reviews is eye opening and rather saddening. It's all about the dust/oil or whatever 'it' is, and it shows up on the 4-star ratings that say 'don't buy' - which is rather odd that they give it a '4 star' rating, but that's another story.
If you have some spare time, and really who does, the low review is really lower than the stars shows, and that's a pity.
I kind of ask myself why should I care, then I think, well, I have a boatload of FX lenses that I'd like to get the rest of my lifetime's worth of use out of. That's why. I have a D7000 that takes the same battery, of which I have spares and several D7000 accessories that would also work, too, and the two cameras would work in a similar fashion - less learning - well anyway - my guess is that a D610 will be out along with a D7200 this Fall.
Perhaps it will work better. I'll wait until Spring to find out.
My best,
Mike
Reading the reviews is eye opening and rather saddening. It's all about the dust/oil or whatever 'it' is, and it shows up on the 4-star ratings that say 'don't buy' - which is rather odd that they give it a '4 star' rating, but that's another story.
If you have some spare time, and really who does, the low review is really lower than the stars shows, and that's a pity.
I kind of ask myself why should I care, then I think, well, I have a boatload of FX lenses that I'd like to get the rest of my lifetime's worth of use out of. That's why. I have a D7000 that takes the same battery, of which I have spares and several D7000 accessories that would also work, too, and the two cameras would work in a similar fashion - less learning - well anyway - my guess is that a D610 will be out along with a D7200 this Fall.
Perhaps it will work better. I'll wait until Spring to find out.
My best,
Mike
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Comments
I'm sure some of your older DSLRs had dust on the sensor too. My D40 certainly did, and you can probably remove that stuff in post processing.
On the plus side, at least there are no real AF issues like the D800 does (did?).
If you want one just get it!
I love the AI coupler on the D7000. The communication between the lens and the body without electrical contacts felt like magic to me- metering and AF confirmation all worked. For someone who never really got the chance to use a high quality manual focus Nikkor, the D7000 breathed new life into the 50mm 1.2. Even if my D40 hadn't died, it would have just sat there as using the 50mm 1.2 just wasn't pleasant on the D40. The sensor crop makes it a little wonky, but I think I might find other old metal Nikkors for the D7000.
For you the D600 would be a dream come true.
Either that or find a used D700. If you don't do video, no point in getting a D600 anyway.
JUST GET ONE!
It really is the classic outcome of this "completion number" focus. If pushed/incentive's are focused on the completion rate, workers/managers push to finish more and more, and allow their department's basic quality control to fail. This happens on every level. Then use the justification that the "failure" rate is below the threshold of "X" and thus is acceptable. With this focus, once initial production fails, research into the cause is hurried, a quick fix is put in place with an usual result "addressing" the issue it and praying it stops. Usually this only works for a short time and then it comes back or the fix, then becomes the problem.
Down line, the lower quality causes customer support departments to become overwhelmed, which usually results with (as seen by) frustrated or short responses to customer messages, slow service due to lack of parts because of the influx, failure to fully fix physical issues on returns (due to the lack of parts/overwhelmed technicians.) If the support entities are also driven by completion numbers, products are processed quickly, doing the bare minimum to address the issue. Then multi-returns increase (same unit being returned multiple times) which then, and finely, an outpouring of negative customer feedback. Once it hits that final stage, you have lost repeat customers and begin to loose new customers.
Nikon is there - Started with the spots on the D7000, then a Pro body (D800) with focus issues, of all things & more spots. Then it has continued with the D600 with even more spots. The SPOTS!!!! At this point I think Nikon's new mascot is a dalmatian. Everything seems to be coming from something in the shutters, or around the mirror mechanism. Started with the D7000, has hit every body but the D3x and the D4. The D800 didn't have much of the issue either. Something changed, new part manufacture, or a particular new plant, or new machine that puts the parts together. Seems like they should be able to find the problem quickly but I guess not.
Nikon has been under extreme pressure for a D700 replacement, then a D300 replacement, a lower cost FX and a great mirrorless system. At the same time, trying to finely update it's ageing lens offerings and introduce new lenses. Added to the pressure, you have a Flood that wiped out a plant, and a tsunami that impacted many partners manufacturing areas. Then that, pushed release dates back, and customer demand became more vocal.
All of that added together, and keeping up with Canon, leads to what I see as a poorly thought through knee jerk reaction: How to beat Canon, Largest MP FX sensor, Larger MP DX sensors. How to meet customer demand? - Push production and put pressure on all manufacturing to produce cameras quicker. Higher Warranty issues with new bodies? Faster turn around time equals better customer service - push turn around time.
All of this is really predictable. The unfortunate thing is, those of us, like me, who have major investments in the Nikon system just has to hunker down and deal with it. (Note: I have been lucky so far and have not had any issues with my D800.)
Seeing the Canon 6D test results in the Popular photo magazine I got today, High iso of 51,200 registering only moderate (2.5) on noise and unacceptable at 102,400 ISO. Canon 5D MkIII hit Unacceptable at 51,200. D600, Moderate (2.6) at 6400 & unacceptable above that. D800, Moderate at 3200 and unacceptable above that.
I got to play with a Canon 5DmkIII, a 50mm 1.2 and 2 600EX-RT flashes in the store over the weekend, and I have to say, and will admit, the performance- FPS, Noise, AF (Nikon is better in low light) and megapixels, radio wireless flash to control 5 groups of lights, is what I am looking for. What I'm looking for right now, is what Canon offers - high iso, reasonable resolution, 50mm 1.2, radio wireless flash. And I think that sucks!
I really do like my D800 and wouldn't move to Canon not only for the financial reasons, but I think Nikon does produce better products (when they are without issues) but I can't help to feel a bit disappointed in Nikon at the moment.
Seriously, the problem with the D600 is lack of communications from Nikon. I think a lot of people are "waiting on the sidelines" instead of buying the camera.
And to a lesser extent the D800 suffers from the same problem. I've been "hanging on" to my D700 instead of upgrading to the D800. The way I figure, the longer I wait, the higher the probability I'll get a good sample instead of a problematic one.
I remember when the D200 came out -- it had banding issues -- but still stores had a really hard time keeping them in stock. That was years ago though; nowadays, there are many more choices, so I would guess all the negative comments on the D600 are causing a measurable sales impact to Nikon.
I have a studio shoot coming up where high-res would be useful, so when that comes I will let go of my D700 (which is almost perfect for me except for the lack of video) and buy an 800e. But if that shoot doesn't happen then I might just hang on to the D700 a little longer.
D3 • D750 • 14-24mm f2.8 • 35mm f1.4A • PC-E 45mm f2.8 • 50mm f1.8G • AF-D 85mm f1.4 • ZF.2 100mm f2 • 200mm f2 VR2
I don't know that I can agree with you regarding the completion numbers being the cause of the dust/oil issue. As you probably know but it is worth repeating here, quality of the finished product starts with the component and product design and continues through production to the packaging of the built product including even the finishes used on components and importantly also includes the production process. Oil is to a varying extent an out of control process and so can easily become an issue but then is easily fixed too. Dust on the other hand is more of a problem as it is too easy to build assemblies in localised clean conditions for a new plant to be the cause of it. I believe it is more likely generated by (perhaps) the shutter shedding finish due to some design issue in that area and it continues perhaps because Nikon have too many of an expensive component manufactured to just scrap them off (although it would actually cost them less than this s**t storm).
At this stage I would be heartened even by just an acceptance that there is a problem and the promise to fix it.
Lots of thoughts on my mind. Shooting the mkIII with flashes behind book cases and a 50mm f/1.2 being among them.
My whole guess in this D600 mess is that either the shutter or the mirror movement mechanism is made by a contractor that downgraded materials (mirror pad, oil, or grade of metal) or paint coating process that is getting shaken/scratched/slapped off. If it was Nikon controlled (their production issue) I'm willing to bet it would have been fixed. Getting sub contractors to change is a whole different story.
I have not had troubles with my D800 either but I admit to nagging doubts as to its reliability. I also rather regret selling my D700 as I got on with it very well. Its high ISO performance was pretty much as good as the D800 I think but on occasion being able to blow up part of an image and retain resolution is pretty good! AF at f8 is nice too!
The whole affair is beginning to bear a remarkable similarity to recent BMW motorcycle models. They have very badly damaged their reputation in the motorcycle world with several bikes being released with serious, safety related design problems, using customers as quality control monitors and unpaid development testers and then being in denial, claiming that there are no problems! Much of this, it is assumed, is because of their desire (like Nikon) to compete with the opposition with bigger, fancier, flashier, higher performance models and put them in the showrooms before they have been fully developed and tested. Very similar in parts to Tao's excellent analysis of Nikon's position above I think. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
Well, I agree fully that Nikon has made errors in public relations from which they may not fully recover. I would suspect anyone who is entering into the field and making large purchases would shy away from Nikon at present as the unpredictable nature of camera bodies is frightening. If the D400 arrives, I will allow several months to pass, see if this is without problems, then jump in. Before all the problems, I would have ordered immediately. At present I am deeply invested in Nikon, like the ergonomics, and can in no way switch.
What is so amazing is the "silent treatment" Nikon uses. If they would simply state, something to the effect "We have been informed some D600 bodies may have a problem with foreign material on the surface of the sensor filter. Although this appears to be a problem with only a few cameras, the issues are being handled by our dealer network."
Such a simple statement might at least allow us to see that Nikon is taking responsibility for the mess and suggest an appropriate solution. While it appears Nikon is doing just this, allowing dealers to exchange cameras, some acknowledgment would be nice.
As to BMW bikes...after a dealer service center stole a headlight flasher unit during service, I switched to Suzuki!
The retailer offers me my money back or an exchange for a new D600.
According to Nikon (The Netherlands) Nikon Japan is investigating the issue and results and instructions on how to fix the problem are expected soon. (Third or Fourth week of February, Do note though that this is an estimate by Nikon Netherlands and not an announcement by Nikon Japan)
While they await word from Nikon Japan they offer free sensor cleaning(s) with the choice to bring it in myself but preferably trough the retailer, As my retailer only offered me my money back or a new camera I'd prefer to bring it in myself, Service center ain't that far away from my hometown. (30 minute drive.)
Anyway, I sent Nikon Netherlands a reply asking if exchanging the camera for a new one is sensible or if the risk of running in the same problem makes it not worth it to be without a camera for an unknown amount of time.
The overarching question is: is Nikon a company that is losing its way? I'd like to argue in the affirmative by asking these follow up questions:
1) Nikon just posted a mediocre earnings report coupled with a very negative short-term outlook. What is the company's way forward? Is it DSLR? Is it P&S? A large contingent on the main [NR] blog claim that Nikon is an optical company that makes microscopes, transmogrifiers, and continuum transfunctioners and merely downloads this more profitable technology into cameras as icing-on-the-cake. Any truth to that?
2) In regards to new bodies/lenses, are the Japanese Tsunami and the Thai Floods really to blame, or are they convenient scapegoats for lapses in design advancement? I understand these disasters were real, and greatly affected production. That said, should they really have affected design of new products?
3) Why is customer service allowed to be so poor/unresponsive? I won't go into all the examples already on this board, I want substandard customer service taken as fact for the purpose of this discussion. My question is, why is it tolerated?
4) Why does Sales do baffling things? E.G. A current discount Nikon Bundle offers:
D600
+24-70 f/2.8
+24-85 f/3.5-4.5 kit lens.
Who was the sales wizard who came up with that package? If anyone buys it, they'll surely resell one of the lenses, contributing to too large a second-hand market.
5) Why, when trying to push a new technology like CX, does Nikon confuse the potential customers with too many lines and too frequent refreshes?
6) Why hasn't Nikon explained a clear way forward, if not to the customer base, at least to its own shareholders?
Any/all responses welcome. I remain a committed Nikon shooter.
in other words supply is grater than demand
any on know of a company that is not is a similar position
The world economy is not exactly booming
@NSXTypeR Because it's a defect that really should be fixed.
@TTJ. Yes, in short. It looks like Nikon has dug themselves a hole so big they can't really climb out of it. Pity.
@Ade, Squamish, PM_PB I've thought a D700 might be the answer. Really. Long and hard. I do want to transition to Nikon for all video, too. I use a GH2 and D7000 for video now (the GH2 is better, and I have a terrific Nikon lens adapter for the M/43).
@Msmoto - I haven't seen, nor do I expect to see any official Nikon comments. It would be very, very welcome to have a recall and a 'fix', and a new release, but I don't think that will happen.
@Sato - I expect Hell will freeze over first.
@shawnino - There's a lot I don't know, and I doubt I could really answer your questions very well, but you do need to know that Nikon is more than a camera/lens company.
Even in the Camera/Lens company, DSLRs are in the small division. Coolpix reigns. My guess, and I think I'd be right, if every D600 owner were to win some outrageous law suit (and he/she couldn't) for 3x the value of the camera, Nikon would still make a profit for whatever quarter (less profit for sure, but nonetheless).
Ignoring the problem as policy seems to be what is happening.
Isn't that egregious?
If I weren't so invested as I am, I don't know that I would be looking to stay with the brand.
My best,
Mike
Nothing though, excuses the head in the sand attitude that Nikon seems to be adopting and I am certain that if they just admitted there was a problem with the D600, confirmed that they had a fix and promised to break their necks to put it right, they would gain better respect. This stuff is very expensive- it should work properly!
120-300 2.8, which they refresh often but seemed to get right lately
35 1.4, which if the reviews are to be believed give first-party lenses all the competition they can handle, and a good deal more, at 60% of the cost.
Whether it's kindness, hope, or something else, all seems forgiven re: Sigma.
If Nikon releases a high-end DX body with no QC issue, a companion tele to match, an AF 1.2 lens near 55mm, and a good replacement for the 80-400, will all the negativity be washed away? Or not?
@shawnino - I'll quick hit your ?s
1. A lot of companies in Japan got hit hard this last quarter. Some part of it was the currency valuation with the Yen valued so high, exports dropped. That's the big picture, there were more problems than that.
Nikon's industrial, health, and other divisions are very successful and I'm guessing actually make the money for the company. This is no different than any other major company. If you do only one thing, you will die, if you are diversified in industries, you survive.
2. (Japanese Tsunami and the Thai Floods) - in one word - yes. You can't underestimate (goes way beyond current production) the impact huge disasters have and the decisions that come from them. Nikon has been trying to make ground up from being behind (I question that is self induced rather than real) and need to catch up. Basically they were 6 months behind all releases, now they are almost back on the "classic" nikon schedule - but we have seen the results of the issues.
3) Customer service, As I said above, it is a end result of being overwhelmed due to the large amount of issues that have arisen.
4) Bundled items - Simply put, it is a way to gain more sales and not reduce overall average margins. Check here for why: http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/472/d800-discount-based-on-20-devaluation-in-yen-since-announcement#Item_5
5) "..confuse the potential customers with too many lines and too frequent refreshes?" I'm not confused, baffled why this is common practice, but that is what Olympus and Panasonic do.
6) PB_PM Nailed the head on that one! Far East culture. (shakes head)
Good to hear about Sigma. re. Nikon- good reputations (in any field) take a long time to build up and are very quickly lost. Those of us in business know that only too well.
PBPM.
Yes, I am sure that you are right and this was one of the most tragic features of the Fukushima disaster. However, the Japanese are brilliant engineers and very bright people in my experience. There must be some semblance of understanding in Japan of the worldwide ramifications of this surely; in spite of their cultural reluctance to ever admit responsibility for a mistake. There is also the fact that their European and US (and other) based subsidiary companies must be staffed with non-Japanese executives who are advising them of the result of their corporate stance on all this. I recall the recent fall from grace of the English MD of Olympus! I think that exactly this cultural divide had much to do with that situation.
Bottom line: Many of us have invested for the long term with Nikon and it would be very difficult or expensive to go elsewhere. We should feel confident and supported by the company and not wobbly about their products and corporate attitude. Thom Hogan's blog makes interesting reading on this.
The D7000 was flawless for the most part. As the successor to the D70, D70s, D80, and D90 (which nikon refused to admit) it was a marvel. It even performs better than the D200 on EVERYTHING but the buffer. The lateness of the fx delivery was the first mark of failure. Second the uniqueness of the D800 and the cost of the D4 turned many buyers to wait on the D600. Additionally Many were expecting a Dx marvel to be announced with the D4 keeping with the tradition of the D1, D2, and D3 series. Many of those Dx users looked to the D600 too as the D800 obviously wasn't the right camera lacking in high speed performance. The D600 came and it was bad. It was a stripped down D7000 with a fx sensor for twice the cost of the D7000. The people who wanted a performance body were completely left out.
Canon was much smarter... While people adored the 5Dmk2 it was riddled with problems. Instead of reinventing it they took the crappy AF, low light, and handling and fixed it. As a result the 5d3 is an amazing camera. With their 1D series they pushed the bar higher with the 1Dx and 1Dc. To Nikons credit the D4 overall is a better performer than the 1Dx (I doubt the 1Dc would have been made if it was not for the D4) however quality control is what came back to plague some of the released cameras in the Autofocus department. The 6D seemed rather uninteresting but the simple addition of Wifi and Gps internally made it just fly past the D600. Nikon has terrible Pr and it is catching up with them. Many nikonians wanted one of 3 things... A dx performance body, a cheap performance body (less than $3000), & built in connectivity/gps. Canon has been listening and is starting to catch on. I have asked Nikon for an in camera star rating system function for years... It shows up ist on the 5dmk3, many demand in camera gps; The 6D has it....
I cannot give Canon too much credit however. The real innovator in the industry is Sony who always seems to be 3 years ahead of the game but still trying to find itself. People rave about the first low cost full frame body with the 6D and D600... The a850 has been around for years and was still lower than the other 2 when released...