At Nikon USA - D600 is Lowest rated DSLR. Ouch!

spraynpray

@PB_PM 7 @shawnino:

I just went through the options and it is true you could buy the 24-70 with the 24-85 if you were that daft, but there are at least three other lenses in the bundle offer to choose from that actually make sense so I think you are misinterpreting the thinking behind it.

sevencrossing

To those of you who are rubbishing Nikon or are reluctant to buy their products
Are your experiences first hand
or just something you have read on the web ?

spraynpray

:-? So what are you saying seven? Should people thinking of buying a D600 ignore everything they read here and buy a D600 anyway? Well actually a few people did just that and are going through the problems that they hoped they wouldn't. They had hoped they would get one of the good ones and be lucky.

I think it is a sign of the times that bad news spreads very fast and even more reason for Nikon to come out of the stone age and communicate. We all know that s**t happens from time to time, if they had handled it in a 2013 kind of way they would be have been praised and not pilloried.

sevencrossing

:-? So what are you saying seven? .

what I am asking is, are people's posts based on real first hand experiences or are they just re posting an anonymous online moan

Should people thinking of buying a D600 ignore everything they read here

If the the information is based on first hand experiance, then it is useful

but if the advice is not based on first hand experiance , then people should know that fact

[Deleted User]

First hand experience, bought mine on januari 11 in Holland. No oil spots. Test shot 1409 with f/16, still no oil spots. Upgraded from D300 to FX, a big step and a very tense month for me.
My lenses 28-70mm f/2.8 and 70-200mm f/2.8 are at full potential now, even the 70-300mm VR 1:4.5-5.6, which I bought with my D70, has a better IQ.

Learning curve was fast, no problem at all. I like it even more then my D300 (U1 and U2) and I never walk in the rain with my camera unprotected.

Am I the only one with a good one? If you can get your money back when there are oil spots found, so there is no risk for you at all, then it is simply a great camera.

spraynpray

That is good news Ton!

It is impossible to know for real, but it would be very interesting to know what percentage of cameras are really affected by this problem. People with the problem go looking for places to moan about it whereas people with no problems who aren't on any forum are invisible to us.

You never know, there could only be a hundred cameras out there with very vociferous owners...

Msmoto

@ spraynpray

Yes, we actually do not know the number of cameras....however, in our camera club, I think we have three members with D600's and two of them are on body number three if I am not mistaken. One of the issues is of course that at exposures with wider aperture, the issue may not be as critical for some... Also, magnification is important. For some, they may never see the spots.

The information from camera rentals suggests this is or was a very real problem early on. Whether Nikon has actually done anything is the piece of the puzzle we simply do not have.And, this "no comment" from Nikon could be for many as disturbing as the problem itself.

DJBee49

Sevencrossings point about unsubstantiated 'online moaning' is well made and the internet is full of websites where this is endemic.

However, as Msmoto has said above, there is a real issue here apparently and the real problem is that because Nikon seems to be reluctant to come clean with either the extent of the problem, nor their solution to it, it feeds the rumour mill.

I do not have a D600 but I do have a D800 and the uncertainty over the focus issues with this camera, combined with their reticence, undoubtedly did them damage. It has been suggested that many people returned their D800s for repair to Nikon when they had never actually observed any problems at all, merely reacting to the internet hype. The numbers of D800s really affected may well be much smaller than the figures would suggest. Nikon could surely have cured this by being open from the start and probably sold more cameras too!

[Deleted User]

@ DJBee49
You are right, I have the same opinion. I wrote in another thread, - I bought the D600 because I'am an idiot -. I don't buy a new car when I know there is a great chance it has a start problem, but I did so buying a camera.

Of course it is crazy to put new camera's in the market that has a sensor issue or a focus problem. I Always had convidence in Nikon that these problems should be solved in an instant, as I had for the last 20 years, that's the credit they had from me.

Nikon had lost my convidence and I'am not the only one as I read by everybody.

I saw that the Fuji X-Pro1 had a ssssslow and bad focus, Fuji made that priority 1 and fixed it period. Yes it is different a firmware update against hardware, but they fixed it.

So pick it up Nikon and do it quick.

Sato

First of all, People need to to accept the fact that although Nikon could put a 200+ man team on finding and resolving the problem that'S just not Gonna Happen because that'll be to expensive. If we're lucky they have a 20 man team on it right now who are hopefully close to solving it.
Do note though that whatever solution they come up with needs to be tested to make sure it works and that'll take time.

As to people with the issue storming the web to moan everywhere, Yes those people are out there.
Out of the four forums I follow, I initially reported my issues on three of them and only actively reported back on it on two.
This one and the forum of a Dutch Nikon Owners Club. (Of which I'm not a member, I'm only on there forums.)

Besides one oil spot annoying me from f/8 on and a couple more that join in on the way to f/16 I am more then happy with the Nikon D600 as it offers all I wanted in a D5100 upgrade and even more then I expected.
Nikon's service so far has been great (Email only so far.) And even though the can't offer me a permanent fix, The did offer me a temporary fix in the form of free sensor cleanings.
The fact that Nikon hasn't made a public statement about it doesn't bother me as there's not much the can say at this time besides what we already know, There's a problem and the haven't found the solution yet.
The did fix the left focus issue in the D800, And they did call back they're D7000/D800/V1 battery's back because there was something wrong whit them.

I will not give up my fate in Nikon as that will mean I'll have to give up my new hobby which I'm enjoying more and more, And probably have to give up my fate in any electronics company. Which isn't really an option as I'm nearly 26 years old and still have to spend the rest of my life relying on electronics that unfortunately aren't build to last a lifetime anymore.


@ Kyoshinikon I'm rather curious as to what you meant by:

The fact that nikon put a fx sensor in a crippled D7000 (it isn't even a full D7000 in terms of featureset)

A slightly slower max shutterspeed and flash sync don't make a camera crippled because some so called experts call it that on there blogs.

TaoTeJared

Not to discount Nikon's issue - the D600 and the D800 to some extent have brought more, shall we say "casual" photographers to FX and higher end cameras where in the past they only spent maybe $1,500 on their entire system, and now are spending $2-3,000 on just a body. If something doesn't look right, they feel more hurt by it, due to the cost - and complain LOUDLY and often. I do believe this is 90% of the problem and the actual issues are relatively small. In contrast, I spend at least twice that on gear every year - albeit I sell a bunch too, but still I'm use to "issues" and don't freak out on them.

shawnino

I'm a mathematician and I feel a little ashamed writing something so unscientific, but here's an anecdote from last summer.

My dishwasher stopped working. (This is not the place for a rant on how kitchen appliances have become disposable after five years, this is a Nikon blog, but if you want to pretend I ranted, because I really did in real life, insert that here. My 200mm f/4 micro still works great after about 18 years.) So I went to customer review sites to try to find the best brand to buy.

Guess what? Every brand of dishwasher sucks according to the reviews. Now I thought THIS was the time and place to rant about shoddy kitchen appliances that are cheaper to replace than repair, but a friend calmed me down. "Think about it," he said. "If your dishwasher is a lemon, you're going to go into Howard Beale Rant Mode all over the Intertubes. If your dishwasher works properly, are you going to go to umpteen review sites and write over and over that your dishwasher performs as advertised? Maybe, but likely not."

I've got a D800E. LCD screen seems fine. No left-focus issues for certain.
I've fallen into a D600, which I had converted for IR. 1000 actuations, no spots so far.

Maybe I'm just lucky. But I'm not running around the Internet going "Look Mom, no spots! Look, focusing behaves properly!" So aside from this verbose post, my experience has not been shared.

I have no way to know how prevalent these issues are. I do believe they're real, and I've managed to avoid them. Even a blind squirrel finds occasional nuts. But coming back to the math, I think we have no way of knowing how many customers have been affected.

proudgeek

One of the adages of marketing that I tell clients all the time (made all the more true in the age of social networking):
If you're happy with a product or service you'll tell 10 people. If you're unhappy you'll tell everyone.

Ade

The big difference here, it seems that people/organizations who have access to many D600s and D800s are reporting high problem rates.

E.g., companies like LensRental reporting the need to clean all 20 of their D600s after every (!) rental, vs the usual 1 out of 4. Or reviewers like Thom Hogan who had access to many D800s and personally verified multiple issues / failures.

sevencrossing

E.g., companies like Lens Rentals reporting the need to clean all 20 of their D600s after every (!) rental, .

I would hope if hired any camera. it had been thoroughly cleaned
and this just one retal comapny why are the others not saying anything

NSXTypeR

To those of you who are rubbishing Nikon or are reluctant to buy their products
Are your experiences first hand
or just something you have read on the web ?

I'm curious about this too- it's not like Canon doesn't have QC problems either- they had that light leak in their 5DMkIII cameras.

Although I agree Nikon has been too quiet on things- they really shouldn't clam up like that.

One of the adages of marketing that I tell clients all the time (made all the more true in the age of social networking):
If you're happy with a product or service you'll tell 10 people. If you're unhappy you'll tell everyone.

I agree with this too- I'd make damned sure I'd be heard if a product I bought didn't work.

DJBee49

I wonder if the pointy heads from Nikon ever read blogs like this? If they do- Hi guys!- there might be some wise marketing/customer relations advice to pick up here!

sevencrossing

Do Nikon acknowledge that dust is a problem on the D600?
Yes if fact they recognized dust as a problem on all their DSLRs
which is why the the D600 and other Nikon cameras have Image Dust Off reference data, for use with Capture NX and Capture NX 2.

TaoTeJared

The big difference here, it seems that people/organizations who have access to many D600s and D800s are reporting high problem rates.

E.g., companies like LensRental reporting the need to clean all 20 of their D600s after every (!) rental, vs the usual 1 out of 4. Or reviewers like Thom Hogan who had access to many D800s and personally verified multiple issues / failures.

I think the big difference is that places like LensRental get cameras in large batchs and are among the first to get them - if that is the bad batch at the beginning, they got them all. Now many reviewers get their review equipment by renting it these days, if they rent it from them....So 1 bad camera now becomes 4, 5, 10 bad reviews?
If Nikon pumps out 20-30,000 of these a month, and 500 have the dust problem, that is a 1.5% failure rate - which is not huge or re-soundly terrible, not good, but not huge. And it's dust - Not a shutter, not a sensor going out or AF motor failing, or screen no longer working, just dust. There are a lot more worse things out there.

Still, Nikon is playing a game of amateur hour in handling it.

Sato

After using an air blower again today and mounting the AF-S 105mm f/2.8G VR Micro, Shooting f/32 I discovered that one of my spots is a tiny hair. (that doesn't go away with the build in sensor clean at start-up/shutdown, Or me pumping air at it.)
But some of the spots did disappear, So I'll be taking my camera out tomorrow and I'm not gonna worry about the spots anymore. (Most of the time I can't even find them on normal pictures.)
Might take an image dust off reverence data pic and give Capture NX2 another try because I'm not happy with the way Lightroom 4 treats my RAW's half the time. (It looks great at first and crap by the time its finished loading.)

MikeFrewer

Here's a comment I made in the other thread about the D600.

"I have just had a "live chat" with a Fergus from Nikon UK about this problem. He has informed me that Nikon are aware of a small number of reported problems regarding dust / oil on the D600 sensor. I asked him if there was a certain serial number to look for after which the problem had been solved and he said that they are still looking into the problem. His advice was to take a picture with the camera in the shop against a white background, then check the pictures for any spots. If after I have bought the camera I find spots, just return it to Nikon and they will clean the sensor. Turn round time is about 8 too 10 days."

So bearing in mind Taos comment and Sato above. I'll be on my way into Switzerland tomorrow to at the least check out the local stock. You never know, I may even buy one I'll let you know how I get on re spots.

Sato

My serial number starts with 606 and has issues (although you don't see or notice any of it in a f/4-5.6 portrait picture.)
The serial number of a fellow Dutchman (Ton.) who doesn't have the issue and is also posting in this forum tread starts with 607 if I'm not mistaken.

Although this doesn't prove 607 and up is problem free and 606 and lower is riddled with problems, It might help you as a sort of guideline.

spraynpray

@ Mike Frewer: My money says that you will not be able to walk away from the store without one. The salesman will allay any fears you might have and you will be playing D600 roulette in your mind then before you know it your credit card will be on the counter...

@Sato: Even the bad examples will not show dust up at 4 or 5.6 so I don't understand your point.

MikeGunter

Hi all,

Dust as been a problem for photography since the 19th Century. It ain't new. Nikon's knowledge base has updated their page last month, too:

http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/7348

I don't know what part is new, but the page's new date is January 4, 2013. That probably in reaction to something. It's no secret as to what.

The real problem - the elephant in the room - is how to get meaningful cleaning technique to the users. IOW, teaching the user base to clean the sensor without screwing it up. Right now, it voids the warranty. That's a non-starter.

Furthermore, to add a bit of delicate sauce to this, has been the unpredictability of when the spots will appear. Some of us (I'm in that group) shoot up to 3K shots in a single day. I wouldn't see the spots until viewed on the large screen. It wouldn't be a very good end.

My guess is that the problem is larger than expected. I would think that most users are Program Mode users. Not professionals, but Costco users, amateurs and enthusiasts who just want good pictures (and god loves them, too!). My point is that I think that the lenses are going to favor wide-ish apertures, hiding most spots, and their subjects are also going to be more their children and holidays and shoot 500 photos a year.

Those folks will never see a posting here or DCpreview or anywhere else. And so it goes. They'll never know why that spot appeared on Johnny's face.

My best,

Mike

Sato

@ spraynpray,

My point is, There's no real reason to freak out about it as the 'problem/issue' doesn't show in photo's taken under 'normal' conditions.
Therefore all this complaining on forums doesn't take away the fact that the D600 takes amazing photo's, And not getting one now because of some issue that might not even present itself to be a problem for you. Might be something you'll regret later on.
Even though my D600 suffers from this issue I do not regret getting it.

As to cleaning the sensor yourself, Wet-cleaning and using a brush may void your warranty.
The Arctic butterfly is a brush isn't it? So damaging the filter with that voids the warranty.
So all we're aloud to do is use an air blower?