Why promote Grey Market deals?

Wesley

So, what, in the end does one save by buying grey???

I saved over $600 dollars by buying a gray market D750 and I've used it for countless paying jobs without fail. Needless to say, I'd do it again and would recommend my friends do so as well. And if I did need to send it in for repair, I know of a a 3rd party repair shop that has the parts and can fix it.

So please stop spewing anti-gray market hate. It's obviously that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Which country are you in?

spraynpray

So, what, in the end does one save by buying grey???

I saved over $600 dollars by buying a gray market D750 and I've used it for countless paying jobs without fail. Needless to say, I'd do it again and would recommend my friends do so as well. And if I did need to send it in for repair, I know of a a 3rd party repair shop that has the parts and can fix it.

So please stop spewing anti-gray market hate. It's obviously that you have no idea what you're talking about.

It is at this point that I start to think about closing the thread. Let's not attack each other for asking a question. stephens7 asked his question in a civil way, let's give our answers in a civil way.

So, it seems the wise course of action is to investigate the availability of good quality third-party repair centres and their ability to be able to repair the model we are considering buying from the grey market. That does put a whole different light on the matter.

manhattanboy

The question of gray market really comes down to service needs. Cameras drop in value pretty fast as Canikon and Sony iterate the heck out of their lines hoping to squeeze some cash from up-graders, so the temptation to help offset that drop is becoming greater with the cheaper gray market products.

I would buy gray market only because I do not have the equipment regularly serviced, and that's largely because Nikon does not have yearly maintenance plans like Canon does. I would be willing to spend money to have the cameras and lenses cleaned and calibrated every year as part of a plan, but alas everything at Nikon is a la carte for me. If Nikon really wants to copy Canon on something, how about instituting tiers for the NPS that allow several lens and cameras to be cleaned for free.
http://www.cps.usa.canon.com/repairs/repairs.shtml

donaldejose

safyre: what country are you in?

stephens7

It's all good until it isn't. Nikons work fine until they don't. There is no predicting when a camera will go out of calibration or when it might get damaged. I'm all for saving money, believe me, but in the US Nikon does everything it can to protect their corporate interests. It's just a fact.

WestEndFoto

So, what, in the end does one save by buying grey???

I saved over $600 dollars by buying a gray market D750 and I've used it for countless paying jobs without fail. Needless to say, I'd do it again and would recommend my friends do so as well. And if I did need to send it in for repair, I know of a a 3rd party repair shop that has the parts and can fix it.

So please stop spewing anti-gray market hate. It's obviously that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Which country are you in? It seems that experiences are different depending on the country.

I know that after buying a grey auto-focus lens in Canada from B&H and then asking them what their policy is (vague at best after their own warranty expires) I will limit my grey market purchases to manual focus lenses.

nukuEX2

Why would anybody in their right mind want to risk your hard-earned money on what is essentially a Russian roulette, for what save a quick cash? It will cost you more in the long run if you buy a grey market goods not to mention money but a headache and a heartbreaks.

manhattanboy

Why would anybody in their right mind want to risk your hard-earned money on what is essentially a Russian roulette, for what save a quick cash? It will cost you more in the long run if you buy a grey market goods not to mention money but a headache and a heartbreaks.

Thom explained this much better than I could. Read his post here:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/gray-market-is-changing.html

Here is a nice snippet of the problem:

So here’s the problem (for NikonUSA): if you have an 80% chance of saving US$500 against a 20% chance of paying US$400, how many of the American public are going to take that bet? Given how big the gambling culture is in the US, I’ll bet (;~) you that if everyone thought the way I just proposed, most would take the gray market bet over the NikonUSA import.

Which means less revenue comes into NikonUSA and the customer service and support probably gets worse. Which means the bet gets more likely to be taken by the customer. See the problem?

Ironheart

Perhaps an object lesson is best:
Nikkor 24-120mm f/4G
List price $1100 (5-year warranty)
Grey market $550

You could buy a second lens as your "warranty" and break even, or you can get the square trade 3-year warranty for $85. Pretty compelling eh? This is why Nikon USA should either 1) completely stop the gray market (oh, wait, they can't because it's not illegal) or 2) Refuse to service these items so they encourage folks to not do that or 3) Go out of business.

donaldejose

Many years ago when both camera bodies and lenses were mechanical and metal I bought grey market. With today's electronics and plastics I am afraid to do so. Simple and strong lasts longer with fewer problems. Complex and weaker tends to break down more frequently because there is more to go wrong. Combine that with a fear of not being able to get it fixed and I now stay away from grey market items. I am in the US. I understand this is not true in other parts of the world.

spraynpray

It's all good until it isn't. Nikons work fine until they don't. There is no predicting when a camera will go out of calibration or when it might get damaged. I'm all for saving money, believe me, but in the US Nikon does everything it can to protect their corporate interests. It's just a fact.

I can relate my own business experience to this: It isn't just Nikon USA that protects their business interests so vigorously, it is most large USA companies. The company I am thinking of stopped me opening approved repair centres in North America for my company's products because they wanted all of the pie and not just a piece of it. They weren't protecting the customers from poor quality repairs (because they would have all had to be trained by me), no, they were just being flat-out greedy. The reason they could pull that stroke? They were our only North American Distributor.

Maybe Nikon USA should try that with Nikon Japan. If they are successful, then other could follow.

spraynpray

It's all good until it isn't. Nikons work fine until they don't. There is no predicting when a camera will go out of calibration or when it might get damaged. I'm all for saving money, believe me, but in the US Nikon does everything it can to protect their corporate interests. It's just a fact.

I can relate my own business experience to this: It isn't just Nikon USA that protects their business interests so vigorously, it is most large USA companies. The company I am thinking of stopped me opening approved repair centres in North America for my company's products because they wanted all of the pie and not just a piece of it. They weren't protecting the customers from poor quality repairs (because they would have all had to be trained by me), no, they were just being flat-out greedy. The reason they could pull that stroke? They were our only North American Distributor.

Maybe Nikon USA should try that with Nikon Japan. If they are successful, then others could follow.

donaldejose

@Safrye: what country do you live in?

niemeyjt

Just reading the current Blog headlines about parts shortages and repair delays - if this happens in US, then it must make it more worthwhile to buy grey as delays in sending equipment back to wherever will be no longer than an authorised repair.

Ironheart

Meh, that is just NR stirring the pot. Some days there is really good info on the main blog, other times it's a bit like a supermarket tabloid. If you scrape the Internet you can prove anything to be true :-)

PB_PM

Just reading the current Blog headlines about parts shortages and repair delays - if this happens in US, then it must make it more worthwhile to buy grey as delays in sending equipment back to wherever will be no longer than an authorised repair.

Delays happen regularly. There is one primary reason for that, parts for new models and old models are made in the same factory. If the manufacture has to choose between selling new parts (aka cameras/lenses) or making spare parts for old devices, which one do you think they will prioritize? If the answer is new ones, your answer is correct.

Simply put, delays happen due to production cycles. I had to wait three and half months to get a lens repaired a few years ago, for that very reason. Nikon likely produces parts in batches, and then produces another product in batches. Spare parts would also be allocated at the same time, unless demand for new parts is high. In other words, spare parts become available if there are spare parts to be had.

manhattanboy

Simply put, delays happen due to production cycles. I had to wait three and half months to get a lens repaired a few years ago, for that very reason. Nikon likely produces parts in batches, and then produces another product in batches. Spare parts would also be allocated at the same time, unless demand for new parts is high. In other words, spare parts become available if there are spare parts to be had.

What's at issue here is expectations on timely service. An old car may take longer to gets parts for and everyone expects that, but not having parts for recent cars will quickly lead to loss of customer's business. No one wants their Tesla to sit in a dealer for three months for a part to be made in a remote factory.

Nikon is suppose to be the parts supplier, and as the supplier it is supposed to have enough spare parts to keep business going. If they want to keep inventory lean, that's fine, but then they should have a loaner program, etc. while they force the customer to wait on them.

In the long run Nikon is going to find any brand premium mark-up will disappear. Think about VW diesel car sales in the USA. If I now purchase a Nikon camera and expect it will not be easily repaired, I am now going to expect to pay a lower price for that item.

Ironheart

This has turned into a pretty interesting discussion. I suppose we can all b!t@h and moan about crappy service, but it would be best if we all stuck to our own actual experience rather than speculate. The Internet can be a huge echo chamber and the 1000's of folks a day that get serviced successfully don't get on-line and post.
Reality check: As much as I love Thom and Peter, and everyone else who works hard in the on-line community of Nikon lovers/haters/users, they need to drive ratings and clicks to their sites to survive.
For the few times I have had to interact with Nikon directly, it was straightforward. Do I wish it had taken 1 week instead of 2.5? Sure, but I got the camera back in pristine working condition.
For most issues I have, I take to my local dealer and they give me a loaner whilst they push the paperwork and boxes around. For me this is worth the price of admission for paying full retail for gear. I spend my $$ locally, they are happy, I'm happy, everyone's happy and yeah, I paid 20% for my warranty, piece of mind, and good relations with the folks that have way more leverage with Nikon than I ever will.
(see how I brought this back?) I still consider and am tempted by gray market deals, and for a cheap superzoom I will probably do it, but for an expensive prime, I really want my 5 years of coverage. If I were a working pro, I might have a different perspective.

PB_PM

What's at issue here is expectations on timely service. An old car may take longer to gets parts for and everyone expects that, but not having parts for recent cars will quickly lead to loss of customer's business. No one wants their Tesla to sit in a dealer for three months for a part to be made in a remote factory.

Nikon is suppose to be the parts supplier, and as the supplier it is supposed to have enough spare parts to keep business going. If they want to keep inventory lean, that's fine, but then they should have a loaner program, etc. while they force the customer to wait on them.

There are some big differences between Nikon and Tesla. Tesla needs to make parts for what, 5-10 vehicle types, while Nikon makes well over 300 unique products (cameras, lenses, binoculars, sporting scopes, laser rangefinders, medical equipment, eye glasses etc), many of which have many complex parts. Expecting Nikon to have every possible part for all those products, especially older out of production ones, at any given time is simply unreasonable.

Would I like it if Nikon could instantly fix everything in a hour like getting an oil change at the car dealership? Sure. I bet they would too, because good customer service is good for business. But there are limitations in the real world, both in terms of production capacity, staffing etc.

A loaner program would be nice, but could be difficult to maintain, considering the range of products that users bring in for repair. Each repair depot would have stock hundreds of loaner lenses/cameras of each type. That would not be economical, or practical. People already complain that products are slow to market, just imagine how much worse it would be if the repair depots also had to stock thousands of products in case someone requires a loaner. As far as i know, only NPS members have that option.

manhattanboy

Nikon makes well over 300 unique products (cameras, lenses, binoculars, sporting scopes, laser rangefinders, medical equipment, eye glasses etc), many of which have many complex parts. Expecting Nikon to have every possible part for all those products, especially older out of production ones, at any given time is simply unreasonable.

If a company can't service the official products it produces, it leads us back to the gray market argument: it is simply cheaper for the consumer to pay less up front and roll the dice with the service issues, or at least acknowledge that Nikon can't provide reliable service and purchase a replacement warranty through Squaretrade, etc. that is more useful practically should the item malfunction.

The purchase decision then looks like this:

Purchase a gray market item + product replacement 3rd party warranty

or

Purchase an official item and pray Nikon can follow through on their warranty

The math is close, but favors the first option for items that you are less likely to use beyond 3-4 years (like a camera body that will be replaced by a new model in that time frame).

manhattanboy

A loaner program would be nice, but could be difficult to maintain, considering the range of products that users bring in for repair. Each repair depot would have stock hundreds of loaner lenses/cameras of each type.

A loaner program could be simplified to only the official Nikon repair centers like the one in upstate NY or LA, and it need not be an exact replacement... your 7100 is in for repair, how about the option to loan a 7200? Who knows, by giving the customer the opportunity to try new products he/she might actually like them and want to buy them. Mercedes and some other car manufacturers do this to tempt people to upgrade.

Again all of this is nice, but really begs the question at the end of the day is what type of brand does Nikon really want to be? An Apple or Mercedes with greater attention to detail or service, or a lesser "value" brand without the fine-trimmings and service?

spraynpray

A loaner program would be nice, but could be difficult to maintain, considering the range of products that users bring in for repair. Each repair depot would have stock hundreds of loaner lenses/cameras of each type.

A loaner program could be simplified to only the official Nikon repair centers like the one in upstate NY or LA, and it need not be an exact replacement... your 7100 is in for repair, how about the option to loan a 7200? Who knows, by giving the customer the opportunity to try new products he/she might actually like them and want to buy them. Mercedes and some other car manufacturers do this to tempt people to upgrade.

Again all of this is nice, but really begs the question at the end of the day is what type of brand does Nikon really want to be? An Apple or Mercedes with greater attention to detail or service, or a lesser "value" brand without the fine-trimmings and service?

I had that experience with Mercedes myself - I asked them not to lend me the next range up, I said the same or lower would be fine.

I wouldn't want to borrow a D4s or D7200 for the same reason.

PB_PM

Again all of this is nice, but really begs the question at the end of the day is what type of brand does Nikon really want to be? An Apple or Mercedes with greater attention to detail or service, or a lesser "value" brand without the fine-trimmings and service?

I've never received a loaner from Apple when a device was down, so I don't get your point. Not sure what Apple's service is like now, I've not had to make a claim in many years, but the last time we did, it took Apple nearly a month to fix our computer (all it needed was a new graphics card).

When my iPhone's home button wore out, they basically said, yeah just buy a new phone it's cheaper. Great customer care there. Don't get me wrong I like Apple products, but I don't have Steve Jobs reality distortion glasses on either.

PB_PM

Nikon makes well over 300 unique products (cameras, lenses, binoculars, sporting scopes, laser rangefinders, medical equipment, eye glasses etc), many of which have many complex parts. Expecting Nikon to have every possible part for all those products, especially older out of production ones, at any given time is simply unreasonable.

If a company can't service the official products it produces, it leads us back to the gray market argument: it is simply cheaper for the consumer to pay less up front and roll the dice with the service issues, or at least acknowledge that Nikon can't provide reliable service and purchase a replacement warranty through Squaretrade, etc. that is more useful practically should the item malfunction.

The purchase decision then looks like this:

Purchase a gray market item + product replacement 3rd party warranty

or

Purchase an official item and pray Nikon can follow through on their warranty

The math is close, but favors the first option for items that you are less likely to use beyond 3-4 years (like a camera body that will be replaced by a new model in that time frame).

To me option 2 is still better. Why? Because I can actually get my item fixed without hassles. Getting it done through a third party will not a) make getting parts any faster, b) be any cheaper, and c) cover you against recalls.

Going through option 1) includes not having easy access to support and repairs. I'd rather have delays than not being able to get repairs done at all (which is often the response from third parties on complex fixes). 2) Having to deal with multiple third parties to get any repair work done, if needed. So first you have to get this third party warranty provider to actually agree cover repairs (good luck) and then you have find a third party that can actually do the repairs, in a competent manner. Again good luck with that.

spraynpray

You recalls point is especially relevant just lately PB.