Dealing with dull skies

WestEndFoto

VTC2002, you were blessed with perfect lighting, benefiting from the extensive cloud cover that acted like a big softbox and the sun's serendipitous perfect lighting of the distant clouds. What direction are you facing?

donaldejose

"My creative choice would be to leave the tufts or even darken them a bit. I like their drama." Wow! Illustrates how different people see things differently. I have the opposite reaction. As is the tufts lack drama to me; darker they would lack even more drama! Lightening them with the last rays of sunlight would increase the drama of the scene to me. This is why we can express our options for others to consider but we have to be careful not to insist our preference is the "right" way. It is good that we all like different things because that makes the world more varied.

WestEndFoto

donaldejose said:

"My creative choice would be to leave the tufts or even darken them a bit. I like their drama." Wow! Illustrates how different people see things differently. I have the opposite reaction. As is the tufts lack drama to me; darker they would lack even more drama! Lightening them with the last rays of sunlight would increase the drama of the scene to me. This is why we can express our options for others to consider but we have to be careful not to insist our preference is the "right" way. It is good that we all like different things because that makes the world more varied.

Yes, it is also why critiquing ones creative choices grates on me. I find it very presumptuous.

donaldejose

I like to hear different points of view which is why I have encouraged discussion of them for years on NR. Some I accept as valid; others I don't because I consider them to be invalid. But I would not get to make that choice if those opinions were never expressed in the first place!

spraynpray

IMHO all critique is good critique if you put in place the right positive mind set to take value from it. With written critique it is particularly easy to change the sentiment or motivation for the critique.

vtc2002

@WestEndFoto

WestEndFoto said:

donaldejose said:

"My creative choice would be to leave the tufts or even darken them a bit. I like their drama." Wow! Illustrates how different people see things differently. I have the opposite reaction. As is the tufts lack drama to me; darker they would lack even more drama! Lightening them with the last rays of sunlight would increase the drama of the scene to me. This is why we can express our options for others to consider but we have to be careful not to insist our preference is the "right" way. It is good that we all like different things because that makes the world more varied.

Yes, it is also why critiquing ones creative choices grates on me. I find it very presumptuous.

Your comment grates on me and is insulting. Why bother to post your photos if all you want is positive comments that agree with your creative view? How do we distinguish between someone that might be learning Lightroom or Photoshop and not understand the tools being used and someone that is trying to be creative. There are a lot of people that fall into the first category. Lacking context how would anyone know that your post is a creative choice. It is presumptuous of you to assume that your creative choice is the only one that is right and that others do not have any value to offer you or anyone else.

Having someone agree with your creative choice provides value but it limited compared to someone that challenges your creative choice or offers suggestions. It give you an opportunity to evaluate your choice and consider a alternative that you may never have considered that could make you better photographer. If you do not agree with their comment or suggestions ignore them. One does not achieve success by winning all of the time without having failures or setbacks along the way. Wining is easy, losing determines whether a person has character and how they react to losing determines if they will be a winner. How many professionals study their winnings efforts? How many of them study their loses to determine what they need to work on or fix in order to improve so that they can win the next time out? Most are out celebrating their win, the losers are studying what they did wrong so that they can win the next time.

All of us need people to inspire us to be better. This doesn't come from someone that always agrees with you.

Ironheart

“There are no rules for good photographs,
there are only good photographs.”
- Ansel Adams

“Dodging and burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made in establishing tonal relationships.” – Ansel Adams

Sensitometry is the science of the action of light on sensitive material. It's a very complicated physical science. You can liken the negative to the score and the print to the performance. You see the picture, and then you get the negative, with all the information you need. Since I know about the film, I know how I will have to control development to keep the high values, the textures and all that. I can vary my prints to a degree. I never go beyond the original concept, but I can certainly refine it. And there's a difference between how I would play it today and six months from now. There would be slight variations, differences in emphasis; the playing would be an individual matter. But I'm still playing the notes. We are not taking liberties at a destructive level. Does that make sense?
- Ansel Adams "last" interview

How did Adams visualize Monolith?




What he saw was "the majesty of the sculptural shape of the Dome in the solemn effect of half sunlight and half shadow." After taking the shot he realized that what he saw in his mind's eye would not be properly conveyed with the yellow filter he used. Now he had only one plate left. It had to work.

"I saw the photograph as a brooding form, with deep shadows and a distant sharp white peak against a dark sky." He realized that the only way to achieve this visualization was to use a deep red filter. Since the red filter reduced the light by a factor of 16, to allow enough light to hit the negative he had to keep the shutter open for a 5 seconds. "Fortunately there was no wind to disturb the camera during the long exposure."

From "Examples: The Making of 40 Photographs" by Ansel Adams, 1983

In a few days I'll post up the techniques he used in the darkroom to produce the final print from the negative exposed with a deep red filter.

The overall point being is that we usually strive to reproduce what is in our mind's eye, which is decidedly not what the camera captures when you trip the shutter.

I'll find the original (RAW) of this file, but I can tell you this is exactly how it looked on the day and time I was there. What the camera captured was not this, perhaps close, but it needed some "push" to get it to look how it actually was.

WestEndFoto

I should probably be a little more specific. Often a critique of a creative choice is delivered in a way that suggests implies that ones creativity is wrong or inappropriate. Who am I to say whether a someone making eyes look like vampire eyes in post is bad? It is not my style and most don't like it, but unless I understand what the objective is, I can't suggest it shouldn't be done.

Now if I ask the person why they did that to the yes, they might say, "To make them pop." Then I might suggest that most people will prefer less pop (I can't say all)

vtc2002 said:

@WestEndFoto

WestEndFoto said:

donaldejose said:

"My creative choice would be to leave the tufts or even darken them a bit. I like their drama." Wow! Illustrates how different people see things differently. I have the opposite reaction. As is the tufts lack drama to me; darker they would lack even more drama! Lightening them with the last rays of sunlight would increase the drama of the scene to me. This is why we can express our options for others to consider but we have to be careful not to insist our preference is the "right" way. It is good that we all like different things because that makes the world more varied.

Yes, it is also why critiquing ones creative choices grates on me. I find it very presumptuous.

Your comment grates on me and is insulting. Why bother to post your photos if all you want is positive comments that agree with your creative view? How do we distinguish between someone that might be learning Lightroom or Photoshop and not understand the tools being used and someone that is trying to be creative. There are a lot of people that fall into the first category. Lacking context how would anyone know that your post is a creative choice. It is presumptuous of you to assume that your creative choice is the only one that is right and that others do not have any value to offer you or anyone else.

Having someone agree with your creative choice provides value but it limited compared to someone that challenges your creative choice or offers suggestions. It give you an opportunity to evaluate your choice and consider a alternative that you may never have considered that could make you better photographer. If you do not agree with their comment or suggestions ignore them. One does not achieve success by winning all of the time without having failures or setbacks along the way. Wining is easy, losing determines whether a person has character and how they react to losing determines if they will be a winner. How many professionals study their winnings efforts? How many of them study their loses to determine what they need to work on or fix in order to improve so that they can win the next time out? Most are out celebrating their win, the losers are studying what they did wrong so that they can win the next time.

All of us need people to inspire us to be better. This doesn't come from someone that always agrees with you.

What I may or may not want will depend on the circumstances. We are dealing with human beings not black boxes. All you have to do to answer your questions is ask the person who is presenting the image. If you are a good teacher in a classroom you will communicate with the person to understand their decision process – from which the best way to teach will present itself. Some teachers just make judgements without soliciting understanding then move on, but they are not very good teachers. Now a test or contest may be different where only the final product is relevant and not the process, but I participate in Nikon Rumours to learn, not enter a contest.

donaldejose

"If you are a good teacher in a classroom you will communicate with the person to understand their decision process – from which the best way to teach will present itself." I have been a teacher more times than I care to remember: from one on one to a classroom of 30 to a lecture presented to 200. What you state a "good teacher" should do is asking too much unless you are sitting there with a very small group of students able to talk one on one. You cannot take that approach over the internet, with a class of 30 or in a lecture to 200 people. You just have to state your impressions without first asking the other person what their decision process was. You do have to make judgments without soliciting the intent behind the object being judged and then move on. The person listening has to see if they can first see your point and then determine whether or not they agree. In such a situation you judge on your own subjective basis of what you think is good. You don't judge on whether or not the person creating the piece met their creative goal (unless you can work one on one with them). Many works will be "misjudged" because the judge has a different goal in mind than did the original creator of the image. That is just part of the limitation of the medium. It is ok for the person who is doing the judging to be wrong. They are stating THEIR point of view for us to consider as an option we are free to accept or reject.

Ironheart: love the Ansel Adams quotes.

vtc2002

@WestEndFoto
You can't throw it all at the feet of the teacher. The greatest teacher in a classroom of students not willing to learn is no different than a classroom of students motivated and willing to learn and having the worst teacher. I tend to think the second is slightly better in that the motivated and eager student will find a way to learn whereas the first the student will never learn. Learning is a interactive process and involves a willingness of both the teacher and student to be willing to communicate and share thoughts and ideas. It is human nature to judge and our survival is based on our ability to make split second decisions based on our judgment. Judgment does not solicit understanding, it looks at the facts that are present at the time and makes an impression.
I was not trying to suggest that Nikon Rumors is a contest but used the contest as an analogy of learning. One can learn from self reflection and from critiques from peers. You are the only person that knows your motivation for being on Nikon Rumors but I have seen Pitchblack, Spraynpray and others offer sound advice and feedback to you that you have responding either harsh to or disregard as not understanding your creativity. I know Pitchblack (Mark) communication style has alienated a lot of people on this forum but there are few if any that can match his photographic technical skills and post processing skills. Ignoring all of the others but not listening and learning from a such a talented person would be a mistake.
This tread has really gotten off topic and I am not sure how much value it is providing. It might be better suited PM or the next time I am in Seattle or Vancouver that we could get together for a drink.

spraynpray

We are a little off-track Victor, you are right. Further discussion on this topic should take place on the critic my image thread where it should be being discussed.

donaldejose

Here is a way to deal with dull skies and create a bright cheerful image. Snow started falling when I got up today, dull overcast skys. But my mind's eye saw a potential pretty image. I created this image with a Nikon V2, 18-200 DX zoom (yes, a very unlikely combination) and photoshop. Many won't like it because it is not "real." But I like the cheerful colors. My personal creative choice; not to everyone's liking. It is ok with me if you criticize it and tell me you hate it: I still like it.



Best viewed with a black boarder. https://www.flickr.com/photos/76080384@N03/26055144990/in/dateposted/

heartyfisher

My 18-200 is my fav lens on my V1 :-)

donaldejose

Maybe you are the person from whom I got the idea to try it. I remember someone on NR talked about how well it worked and that is why I tried it.

vtc2002

@donaldejose Could you post the before photo and walk through the steps you used to create the final image?

This is a photo that I think could benefit from using the process you used. What do you think?

spraynpray

I like it. It is far away enough from reality that it works.

donaldejose

spraynpray: good point. If it is too close to the original it looks "overdone." If it is far from reality it is more acceptable as "an impression" which is not intended to be real.

vtc2002. I don't think your photo would work because of the brown walkway. You might need to cut off the bottom third of your image. Generally the technique works better with colors you can supersaturate. Try these steps and see what you get and then post your result.

I use adobe elements 13 but anything else will work fine.
1. Increase contrast to taste. Stronger than you normally would use.
2. increase saturation to taste. Go bold, remember you are leaving reality behind and seeking to find strong saturated pleasing colors that only give you an impression of the reality you started with.
3. crop to a pleasing pattern of colors and shapes.
4. now go back and adjust the contrast slider and also the saturation slider until you find the combination you like best.
5. if you find the image is still not vague enough try using one of the filters to add some surface texture. I never use these filters but in their place I have often started with a photograph of a reflection on moving water so it had that texture in the first instance. In the example I posted today I started with snow falling in front of the trees so my original image had texture.

This was the original image I started with today. Quite a bit different, isn't it?
BEFORE

AFTER

spraynpray

Exactly Donald. Halos on edges where clarity, sharpening and/or contrast have been hit hard just jumps off the screen and smacks me in the face. Not completely the same but to a lesser extent is Jeff's current over-saturated style. To be honest (not brutally I hope), that saturated look is a kind of right of passage in digital editing. I see many people passing through that look on their way elsewhere. It will be interesting to see how Jeff's style changes over the months and years to come. I saw it in my images for a couple of months when I got my first Nikon.

donaldejose

I like Jeff's work. I like a lot of saturation, especially in landscapes. Halos don't bother me at all. In fact, they work to my advantage when "overprocessing" contrast and saturation to achieve a more impressionistic look. The one criticism I sometimes have had of some of Jeff's work boils down to too much saturation in some portraits. At times I would see the whites of the eyes gaining a bluish tint and at other times I would see skin tones starting to remind me of Ken Rockwell's vivid color style. However, those are minor points and I am sure many people see many more major issues with my work. All in all, I think Jeff produces beautiful images.

If I too am "passing through" an oversaturated style on the way to something else I fear it is to go on to an even more extremely oversaturated style as illustrated in the photo I posted above and in the photo below. I like this following image I made and admit it is completely oversaturated and "marred" with digitally created brushstrokes. Yet, it puts a cheerful smile on my face so it is "good photography art" to me.

As an aside to the issue of dull skies; this was shot on a nice blue sky day at about 7 to 8 pm which is why you see the blue reflected in the water, the warm colors on the leaves/grass, and the shadows cast at an angle across the frame.

spraynpray

I like it too Donald. Again, it is just 'removed' enough for my taste. FWIW nothing will get you kicked out of a comp or comp selection quicker than halos. Just sayin' is all.

heartyfisher

:-) its fun playing with the colours and weird filters .. so far I have not saved the results.. not recently anyway ... Maybe I will save a few now :-)

PS : re the image above.. may I suggest a crop? maybe remove the black trunk and ground (and blue sky) on the left as it seems to distract from the theme of the image.

Msmoto

As to post processing....admittedly, there are a few I would not post process, although I cannot remember any. Even an image as stunning as the above might be helped in shadows by working on it. More shadow definition is what I believe makes the Zone System of Adams and Archer so phenomenal in producing an image which fits into what we thought we saw originally.

And, old dogs do not learn new tricks easily.....

And, rarely accept advice...more LOL

donaldejose

For your consideration here are the three images back to back with the changes suggested above.
My original edit.

MsMoto's suggestion to lighten the shadows (on the tree trunk mainly).

heartyfisher's suggestion to crop out about the left third of the image.


I think sometimes you just have to try many different things and then look at them back to back and see which one you like best. Of course, people will differ in what they like best and that's perfectly fine. We want variety in this world.

spraynpray

Three completely different feels to those edits. The HDR look makes them quite a bit more surreal. All good.

donaldejose

Surreal is a good word for the effect in that photo manipulation. I just want to use my camera as a tool to create something beautiful, or at least pretty. It doesn't have to be an accurate copy of reality. My preference is for the first one. Why? Because I feel the additional blackness in the image creates more contrast/drama and makes the bold colors pop more. Viewed on this white background I want to see more black in the image. Hence, to me image 1 is better than image 2 as presented here. However, if you click on each image you will see it against a black background in flicker. Try it. Viewed that way, you don't need the black in the tree, in my opinion. I think this image is best presented matted in black in a black frame and maybe even printed on metallic paper to make the colors further shine or pop. If I were to mount this photo in a black frame with a black mat I think I would choose the last one. Why? because presented that way it enhances the blue in the stream. The blues, greens and yellows work well with a black surround. These kinds of discussion are interesting to me because it helps me to see what others see my photo and how they would change it.