Dealing with dull skies

retread

To my aging eyes adding shadow detail improves the photo. The cropping makes an entirely different photo, I do like it but do I like it better I don't know.

Just a comment from an old guy learning the digital world. Take it for what it is worth - not much.

donaldejose

Thanks for your comments.

spraynpray

I am a great fan of viewing on mid grey or darker backgrounds. I really hate white backgrounds.

vtc2002

@donaldejose I tried your process on the image and you were correct the walkway did present a problem and I did not produce a image that I was happy with, however, it was a interesting exercise. I tried it on a couple of different photos and may post one them later in the week. I think it is a good method to use on photos of dull skies. I agree with @spraynpray with his use of the term surreal. You images seem to be different from a lot of the HDR shots that I have seen and are far enough from reality to not be confusing. @Msmoto and @heartyfisher comments and the resulting images I found to helpful and added value to the images you produced. I like them quite a bit.
This has been an interesting thread. I do not consider myself to be a purists and I do use post processing (sometimes quite a bit) but I struggle with doing a lot of post processing especially with landscapes. Perhaps I am more of a realist than I want to admit. I am not sure if it is my faith, my mentors and teachers or my many years of using film (or something else) but I find most landscapes to be beautiful without having to do a lot to make it better. I have taken far more photos that when I look at them do not look like what I thought I saw than I have that captured the beauty that I visualized. Most of the time it has been that I was timing, my lack of skills or limitations of my equipment (or all of these and more) that kept me from capturing the image I visualized. The question is how far to go in your post processing to produce the image that you saw or produce an image you find beautiful. For me often I will revisit a site under different conditions to get the image I want. If I cannot revisit the site I will try post processing. When the image quality starts to fall off or the image starts to lose the characteristics that I visualized I stop. I guess to me some images cannot be processed to meet what I expect and that fine. If this is for a client, it is my name and reputation that is on the line and I do not want compromise my standards.
The blog post about the D800 in Scotland has been interesting to see the comments and seem somewhat related to this discussion and critique my image thread. I was surprised to see so many comments about the over processing and saturation of the authors images. I have been to the part of Scotland and have a lot of photos of that area and they are entirely different. They do not look like the Scotland I know and love. I agree with @spraynpray about digital photographers tend to go through a phase of oversaturation and heavy post processing and after time progress to a different phase.

donaldejose

Yes, I noticed the Scotland images had been post processed to increase saturation. In my opinion often a bit of increased saturation improves the image (that Kodachrome 25 look), then more saturation overdoes it to make the image look faked and then even more saturation makes the image good again because the viewer recognizes it now is a surreal image rather than a real image so it is judged as to whether or not the colors are pretty and the composition pleasing as in modern art. The image is no longer judged as to whether or not the colors are natural.

As for your image. Try cropping to put the red bridge and its reflection in the lower left hand corner of the frame. Maybe also crop the top at the top of that pine tree just to the left of the red bridge so as to take out some of the blank sky. Don't worry about losing pixels.

spraynpray

OK LOL! this is an image that I took when I got my first Nikon (D5000). It sails close to the wind in terms of being heavily over-saturated, but the day was amazingly vibrant. I post it to give @WestEndFoto a laugh and to show that dull skies don't have to be grey, just featureless. I could have put a couple of fluffy clouds in there but that is how the day was and when I look at it, I remember the moment so I like it.

Note the whites are white, and there are no halos. Edited in the first Lightroom IIRC.

vtc2002

@donaldejose I tried a cropping a couple of different areas of the photo but I was not able to come up with a image that I liked. I have been really busy on some work for a client but will look for a photo that may be better suited for this technique. Thanks again for the information and the suggestions.

vtc2002

@spraynpray I believe Jeff has left NR. He has posted some images on Flickr but he is not posting on NR. Sorry to see him leave and I hope it was not because of something I said. I was simply offering advice and was not trying to make it personal to him. I would provide the same advice to any photographer seeking to learn.
It is unfortunate, I have seen Flickr and other photo sharing websites lead photographers down a path that impaired their photographic skills development. It is easy to confuse a person liking your photo with it being a good or great photo. There are a number of talented photographers on Flickr. There are a lot of people on Flickr that are motivated to get as many followers and likes as they can get using a variety of techniques to get them at the expense of others. As you said with the equipment that he has and the places he travels to he has the potential to be producing some outstanding photos. With his post processing skills if he had really good or great image to start with he could produce some stellar images.

vtc2002

@Ironheart I really like your post, including your photo. I really like the Ansel Adams photo you selected and his comments. According to Ansel this was the first photograph that he took where his pre-visualization and the image he produced matched. It also shows one of the key traits that every photographer should have and that is perseverance. The photo he took prior to this one he was close to what he wanted to achieve with the yellow filter but he knew it wasn't quite right. So he chose to use his last plate and capture the image he knew would be correct. I have often wondered how many of the photographers today would stop with the image with the yellow filter and say I will fix it in post processing. I also wonder if Ansel would do the same thing or would he still persevere and get the best photograph to start with and then add to it with post processing. I personally think he would get the best photograph to start with and then post process. (A interesting thread would be what traits make a good/great photographer.)

spraynpray

I hope you are wrong about @WestEndFoto leaving NR, I think he is young with a growing family and that it is more likely that he has other more pressing issues at the moment.

You are right, 'what makes a really great photographer' would make an interesting thread.

WestEndFoto

Huh! Leave?

Spraynpray is 1/3 right. I do have a growing family. The six week old, Jeff the 3rd, is quite the little distraction. Not sure about young. 47 is not starting to feel young anymore. The main thing is a colleague has "moved on" and I am performing his role in addition to my own, which is resulting in 60 hour work weeks.

Msmoto

47 is young!

spraynpray

The kids will keep you young too. Way to go.

donaldejose

Glad you are here WestEndPhoto. I like seeing your work.

donaldejose

How about this one for dealing with a dull sky? Actually, my biggest problem here was dealing with dull trees against a dull sky because it was early in the year and the trees had not yet leafed out so they were just brown sticks against a dull sky. I composed by putting the horizon line very high in the frame so the trees became a reflection in the moving water and then I supersaturated the image to bring out color. Overdone or pretty colors extracted from a dull scene?

vtc2002

@WestEndFoto Glad you are here also. I have a 13 year old and we are fostering a two year old. Spraynpray is correct they will keep you young and very busy. Msmoto is correct also 47 is young. I am so use to you posting on a regular daily basis that it was unusual to not see you post for a such as long time.

dissent

I felt much younger when I was 47.

At least if memory serves me. Which it rarely does anymore.

No kids, though.

spraynpray

@donaldejose: A generally pleasing image and a successful way of dealing with a bare blue sky. There are a few fluffy clouds in yours, so it isn't that bad. As for done/overdone, I have to say a little overdone. Halos again around the branch reflection in the water.

As for composition, I would have taken a few steps back or zoomed out and shot it portrait. A nice spot to visit.

donaldejose

spraynpray: Good thoughts. I tried both of those options and ran into two problems. I shot many portrait versions but they just didn't work for me because the bare branches in the white sky were terrible.
Here is an example of what that looked like:

See the terrible bland sky with no leaves on the trees? See there is no decent color in the sky or in the trees. Anyone: What would you do with that? Feel free to download and work your own post processing magic on this image.
Here is the image I started with. I tried to extract pleasing color from the old yellow leaves and the water and the new green growth on the bushes.

Once again, feel free to download and play with it to process it according to your taste.
The one thing I thought about doing, but didn't, was to take my shoes off and walk into the stream to get a different angle with a vertical shot. Just too cold for me to want to do that at this time of year.

spraynpray

I see what you mean Donald. Your processing improved it for sure, and now I see the top part I agree the angle you chose is better. The angle and processing give the image an private, almost jungle-like feeling.

donaldejose

I did struggle with that saturation slider! Moving it back and forth. I kept feeling it was too much but then when I moved it back the colors were no longer pleasing enough to me. Perhaps a matter of personal taste, but I ended up saturating much more than I normally would just to get strong color. That is why I initially posted that I "supersaturated the image." I too think it is too much; but whenever I took it back it seemed to be "too little." Perhaps it is a photo I just shouldn't have wasted time on.
I think this one is the most successful image from that evening's shoot:

It seems to present a place where you might like to be because it is cheerful.

spraynpray

Where you stopped looks just right.

WestEndFoto

Moving the saturation and vibrancy sliders back and forth and where to stop? Exactly my conundrum.

donaldejose

I do find I have one bias as to where to stop with saturation and that is the paper I plan to print on. If I am going to print the image on metallic paper I want a bit more saturation than if I print on normal paper. It seems to me metallic paper and metal prints tend to reward saturated colors a bit more so I tend to provide them. As to vtc2002's point of starting with the best image I certainly admit this is not the best image to start with; far too dull. There was a hill to the west shading the stream and trees at this time in the evening. There was an open field to the right which would have let in plenty of early morning light. I should have gone back to the spot and been there at or shortly after sunrise to get the best light on the subject. Maybe some day I will do so as this is only about 20 minutes from my home. However, most days I would rather stay in bed! I find these discussions interesting and helpful; but I am still too lazy to get up early and drive down there when I know that is what I should do.

vtc2002

@donaldejose and @WestEndFoto I think every photographer (especially digital photographers) go through a phase where they explore over saturating their images. Some that have stay in the phase longer than others but you will find a style that you will like. I think for me it helped by having started with film. It was a lot harder to make some of the adjustments that can be made today by moving a slider and with the higher dynamic range of film it helped set a baseline for me. I also think it helps to pick out individuals that have a style that you like and study there work and try to replicate and add your personal touch to it. I think we all agree that there is no right or wrong style but when you start to introduce artifacts that detracts from the image I think you have gone to far.
@donaldejose I like metal printing as well. It seems to really draw out and enhance the colors of an image. Metal prints have been the most challenging for me as I find it easy to over saturate them. When they are done right they are incredibly beautiful.