BIF help

trolley

So, I use a 200-500mm f5.6 mounted onto a D800. I have played aronud with various settings & currently use AF-C (release & focus), with single point, and the focus tracking lock on switched off. I've tried the other AF-C modes & get crap results with them! Like tonight in the garden. A sparrowhawk flew over - I had the camera on D9 & it hunted all over to find focus, despite the fact that the height of the bird didn't change much. And it was bright & sunny (yes it does happen occasionally in England!). A while ago I got great shots using my usual settings.
Recently I've been trying to photograph BIF, like a kingfisher flying across the water. Or hirundines flycatching. Most images are not sharp, even with 1/2000s & me panning (I have to to get focus). I had a similar (lack of) success rate with the 300mm f4.
So: Am I being deluded in what I'm trying? Is my technique p1$$ poor? (I guees you have to pan at exactly the same speed as the bird is moving; otherwise any relative motion will blur things).
Why can't I get d9, d21, d51, Auto or 3-D to work fast enough? Others swear my them-allegedly.
Do I need a better camera & lens (not happening for some time)?
I'm trying something easier this weekend - motorbikes Bigger & not so erratic-usually.
Help

Coastalconn

It could be a few things, for 1 turn on and set it to 3. If you don't have a lot of practice panning with birds, turning it off will hurt you. The camera focus will instantly come off the bird and look for a new target of you don't keep it lined up in the crosshairs. With it turned on there will be a delay before it starts looking. Try d21 if the background isn't complicated, it will give you bigger crosshairs.. Also practice and practice some more... The 200-500 isn't super fast at acquiring targets so try starting it at infinite so it can come back to the bird quicker..

BVS

Concerning the focus tracking lock, if you're trying to track something coming towards you, is setting it to something other than "off" helpful or un-helpful? In other words, does the tracking lock prevent the camera from adjusting focus quickly as the distance between you and the target decreases? Or, is the camera smart enough to know that you're still on the same target and only delay re-focusing if you lose the target?

Ironheart

Also turning the focus limiter on the lens to 6m-infinity will keep it from hunting all the way down to MFD. The small birds are the hardest, as they flit around alot. If you can find raptors, or other large BoP they are better to practice with.

If you want to really get frustrated, try to track bees or hummingbirds



Settings here are:

AF-C 25-point dynamic

Also, don't expect 100% hit rate. With bees and hummingbirds I hope for 75%

Coastalconn

@BVS Personally I find it on to be very helpful. I've tracked thousands of birds coming at me. The original wording in the manual was screwy.. People saw abrupt distance change and they assumed that meant the subject was coming towards you. What it meant is if something else comes between you and the subject that the camera will pause before starting a new search. Of you have it turned off the camera will instantly focus on whatever is between you and you will loose your subject. Some people prefer it off arguing that if you loose your subject the camera will pause before it starts looking again. If I loose my subject I just let off the AF-ON button and jump back in it while my subject is in the crosshairs. With the D500 they actually changed the name to "blocked shot response" which is a better name I think..

dissent

Is your autofocus switch on the "Full" setting or the limited setting?

Should the VR be set to Normal or Sport (if used)? I wondered about that after shooting the last airshow too.

framer

IMHO D21 is best, for BIF a clean background helps. Having the bird facing the light really helps. Hold the shutter in the 1/2 way position when acquiring focus and framing. Being able to fill 50% of an FX frame also helps.

Backlight hurts, low contrast hurts, with a 5.6 lens low light hurts.

framer

trolley

@dissent, I switch between limited & full. I don't find much difference. Except when it's closer than 6m

trolley

Ironheart said:

Also turning the focus limiter on the lens to 6m-infinity will keep it from hunting all the way down to MFD. The small birds are the hardest, as they flit around alot. If you can find raptors, or other large BoP they are better to practice with.

If you want to really get frustrated, try to track bees or hummingbirds



Settings here are:

AF-C 25-point dynamic

Also, don't expect 100% hit rate. With bees and hummingbirds I hope for 75%

75%. You're having a laugh

manhattanboy

trolley said:

So, I use a 200-500mm f5.6 mounted onto a D800. I have played aronud with various settings & currently use AF-C (release & focus), with single point, and the focus tracking lock on switched off. I've tried the other AF-C modes & get crap results with them! Like tonight in the garden. A sparrowhawk flew over - I had the camera on D9 & it hunted all over to find focus, despite the fact that the height of the bird didn't change much. And it was bright & sunny (yes it does happen occasionally in England!). A while ago I got great shots using my usual settings.
Recently I've been trying to photograph BIF, like a kingfisher flying across the water. Or hirundines flycatching. Most images are not sharp, even with 1/2000s & me panning (I have to to get focus). I had a similar (lack of) success rate with the 300mm f4.
So: Am I being deluded in what I'm trying? Is my technique p1$$ poor? (I guees you have to pan at exactly the same speed as the bird is moving; otherwise any relative motion will blur things).
Why can't I get d9, d21, d51, Auto or 3-D to work fast enough? Others swear my them-allegedly.
Do I need a better camera & lens (not happening for some time)?
I'm trying something easier this weekend - motorbikes Bigger & not so erratic-usually.
Help

Most of the above comments are great but I'll add in a few more things to ponder.
You said most of your images are not sharp with either the 200-500 or the 300f4. Are they sharp on a static object? It could be that your particular D800's telephoto AF system is front or back focusing. Also, what ISO are you reaching with the 1/2000s exposures? Are you using VR? The old 300f4 is VR free and should be sharper than the 200-500, but I was not sure which version you tried and got soft results with, so perhaps you could clarify that. If your ISO is reasonable (e.g. 100-400) you could try shooting on manual and boosting the aperture (e.g. shoot at f8 on the 200-500 or at 5.6 on the 300f4); the added depth of field should help correct small errors in focus acquisition. Lastly, post some trouble pics and some pics that are sharp along with the details of the shots. The folks here are tons smarter than me and just by looking at the pics can often tell you what needs to be fixed

trolley

It was the non-VR 300mm f4. ISO was probably 1250-2000 typically. Obviously for small birds at large distances I have to zoom in/crop - and that's where the fun starts! But sometimes I don't even get that far - you can see in camera that it's blurred & I delete them. I usually have VR on on the 200-500, although I think that slows the AF down. Virtually all static images are sharp, as are larger BIF - herons, gulls, buzzards etc.
@coastalconn - I've set it as you suggested & tried d9 & d21. But really only had bigger birds today. Do you unlock the focus point on the back of the camera?
If it's locked, does that mean you only have 1 focus point irrespective of how many you set?

Nikoniser

I shoot a lot of bird in flight, and dragonflies in flight. There are a few ways to do it :

Select manual mode on camera, set auto iso,

Set aperture to f8 and shutter to 1/2500

If not enough light ( iso 1250+ ) go to f8 and shutter to 1/1250

If still not enough light ( iso 1250+ ) Then f5.6 1/500.

This does depend on bird, something like an eagle that doesn't beat it wings very fast can have a much lower shutter speed

Method 1. Used when there is a busy, low contrast background, and the bird is flying towards/angled

Your center single point is the most sensitive and best aligned.

AF lock on medium.

Continous high burst.

Fire on release.

Single point,

Use a point on the ground at correct range to prefocus

When you see the bird, get the centre point over the bird and use back button autofocus to lock it, and fire off a burst, with back button pressed on, ( if you don't lock, but get the background, keep bumping back button autofocus button untill locked )

As soon as you are not tracking it after a burst, release back button AF and then then get back on it when the bird is centered again to "bump" the autofocus then repeat.

If the Bird is moving parralel to you, when you have lock, take your finger off the back button.

You can use same technique with group point autofocus. and some people like to add the 9 points around the centre point for tracking.

I *personally* prefer just using group or single.

Method 2. Used for birds in the sky or a very clean background. Usually you will need +0.7 to 1 +EV

AF lock on long

Continous high burst.

Fire release and then focus

3D tracking on.

Easy as pie this one, once you have the bird locked 3D tracking will follow it around the frame.





Method 3. Manual, best used where you can predict the path of the bird.


Manual focus

Continous high burst.

Fire on release.

Single point,

Prefocus on where the birds will be, and fire a burst of shots as it passes that point.

As you can see, somthing like a D5 is the perfect tool, and somehting like the d800 is not a great tool, FPS is too low and focus system not up to it. which is why so many people use the big prime lenses and pro body.

I still persist in using my d810 and D7100 as they have other uses !



https://flic.kr/p/yvsK7k

https://flic.kr/p/LQZv7q

https://flic.kr/p/yvsKaX

https://flic.kr/p/wCtLJQ

https://flic.kr/p/uQtrZV

Ironheart

The D in D9 and D21 stands for "dynamic" which means the camera chooses between the points, keep it locked on the center point. At any shutter speed above 1/500 or 1/1000 I turn VR off.

Shooting BIF is an art, not a science. It requires practice and patience. @Nikoniser has described what works for him, but you may find something else. For instance, I like to set a1: AF-C Priority Selection to focus rather than release, sometimes, esp with slower moving prey, err targets.

Coastalconn

@trolley The lock on the back is so you don't inadvertently move the primary focus point, it has nothing to do with the AF mode. As others have suggested, post a few samples so we can have a look at exif..
@Nikoniser
Personally I will not go below 1/1250th and that is only in the dark and emergency. I generally shoot in the 1/2500-1/4000th range.
In method 1, the OP has a D800 so there is no group mode. The advantage of using the Dynamic modes is it will stay on the bird better, and assuming the OP is talking about birds at a distance, I don't think he is trying to get the single point on the eye. Also I would never suggest to someone to disengage AF-On with a bird moving parallel to you. The distance is constantly changing unless you are moving parallel at the same time.

I personally wouldn't suggest method three.

Nikoniser

"Also I would never suggest to someone to disengage AF-On with a bird moving parallel to you. The distance is constantly changing unless you are moving parallel at the same time."

Its the only way to get certain birds. With a 300mm at f8 you have quite a big "chunk" of DOF and just bumping AF on to get lock and then spraying for 2 second will get you 2-3 in focus shots, and you have no chance of holding the point on the bird for the full 2 seconds.



"I personally wouldn't suggest method three."

Almost every kingfisher in flight shot you have ever seen has been made with that technique.

Ironheart

@Nikoniser you must have "a4: AF Activation" set to "AF On only" in order for method 1 to work, correct?

Coastalconn

@Nikoniser
"Its the only way to get certain birds. With a 300mm at f8 you have quite a big "chunk" of DOF and just bumping AF on to get lock and then spraying for 2 second will get you 2-3 in focus shots, and you have no chance of holding the point on the bird for the full 2 seconds. "
Not sure exactly what you are shooting with, but if you only get 2 or 3 in 2 seconds, something seems quite off. On a parallel flying bird relatively close, I get like 19/20 sharp with my D500 with AF-On engaged. I would expect on any modern Nikon camera to get at least 80% sharp on a easy bird. I also would never shoot a 300 at F8, I might stop down to F3.5 on my 300 F2.8. I never really stopped down beyond F4.5 with my 300 F4.

The OP is having a hard time tracking birds with AF, to sugest trying Manual focus probably isn't the best solution. All of my KF shots are AF, btw..

But like Ironheart said, we all shoot differently..

manhattanboy

To the OP, are your static images sharp at ISO of 2000? At 100% viewing, I find that at that ISO there is some blurring/softness occurring compared to base ISO.

Coastalconn said:

Not sure exactly what you are shooting with, but if you only get 2 or 3 in 2 seconds, something seems quite off. On a parallel flying bird relatively close, I get like 19/20 sharp with my D500 with AF-On engaged. I would expect on any modern Nikon camera to get at least 80% sharp on a easy bird. I also would never shoot a 300 at F8, I might stop down to F3.5 on my 300 F2.8. I never really stopped down beyond F4.5 with my 300 F4.

With the 7100, I usually used the old 300 f4 on manual setting at f4.5 at 1/2000s on autoISO (for the lens: AF with limiter set) and actually used the center point only. On the 810, I would use similar exposure settings but with group AF; the depth of field could miss depending on the distance (e.g. wing sharp but body soft), so I would recommend starting at 5.6 and working backwards to 4.5 given that the OP is shooting with the D800 and having sharpness difficulty. It would be great to see some pics though, as I cannot conjecture if increasing the aperture is really going to help, worsen the problem by increasing the ISO, or have no effect at all. The D500 is superb at AF, and I now use 3D tracking primarily as it acts very similar to dynamic but uses more of the data from the new meter to better track subjects (@Coastalconn I would be interested to hear your comparison of the D500 3D versus Dynamic modes). Although I never used it much as group AF worked so well on the D810, I would actually recommend having the OP try 3-D tracking on the D800. If the softness issue really is one of AF point accuracy, then just get the initial 3D point on the bird and let the camera do the rest as the OP can then remain relatively static and not have to accurately pan as much.

Coastalconn

@manhattanboy I have been such a fan of the group I actually disabled 3d from the options. I normally roll with AF-On with one of the dynamic mode, PV button for group and joystick for single point. I have been mostly shooting with complicated backgrounds and group is just so good at grabbing the bird.. It's actually too good on really close birds and I get a lot of really sharp wingtips, lol.. I will give 3d a try over the next few days.

snakebunk

I've been through most settings and now I tend to use single point, AF-C and back button focus. It is hard, but when it works I get focus exactly where I want it. A good thing is that I use the same settings for sitting birds.

PatS

Let me start by saying I am not a pro or wanna be pro. I have read NR for many years and never signed up as an official "contributing" member, Your post inspired me to do so as I have been exactly where you currently are. I am going to try to offer some insight. Once again, I am not a pro and no one pays me for my passion in photography.

I purchased a D800 after the focusing issue was fixed. I wanted one right away due to the enormity of improvement the D800 presented over previous FF models, but felt compelled to wait until the bugs were out.

I am in the Midwest and am blessed to be close to the Mississippi River, so wintertime bald eagle shooting is a passion.

Eagles are somewhat predictable in their descent towards their targeted fish, especially when it is a floating, dead fish. An eagle approaching a dead fish floating on the water is fairly easy to follow, in fact much easier than the birds you are trying (I still don't have a decent kingfisher in flight image).

As far as equipment, I was using a 500mm F4 and 300mm 2.8 (both AFSII models - can't afford the newest lenses as a hobbyist). I tried ever conceivable setting (AFC 9, 21, 3D etc etc) focus tracking at off, 1-5, rear focus button, AF fine tuning. You name it, I tried it.

I would end up with OOF shots at the beginning of the eagle's approach, one or two in focus during descent but more often than not, the money shot (the explosion on the water) would be OOF. My in focus shots were often book-ended by OOF shots. Extremely frustrating. Keep in mind, on an average day on the water I would fire 2500-3000 frames, so this was not a casual experience. Multiply that by 10-20 trips a winter and we're talking significant frame count. I tried it all.

Without going into everything I tried to improve my keeper rate let me cut to the chase - the D800 was never intended to be a BIF camera.

I purchased the D810 after reading a few reviews subsequent to its release. Couldn't wait to get out to the river with it. With the same technique and lenses used on the D800, my keeper rate went up exponentially. In a series of 10-12 approach shots, I was now getting 50-75% or more in focus. I really thought that was outstanding until I visited the Canadian Raptor Conservancy this spring and attempted to keep up with flying owls and hawks with the D810. It couldn't keep focus on these fast moving raptors at close distance. A buddy with me had the (new at the time) D500. He nailed everything. I now have a D500 and can tell you that it is nothing short of amazing. Focus seems to slam in on subjects and lock in. Can't wait to "eagle" with it this winter.

The D800 is a great camera for landscape and stills. I am not saying great BIF and other action shots can't be had with it (I have some outstanding action images from the camera), BUT, the keeper rate will be compromised by the camera's design and subsequent performance. Even with fast lenses, the camera's processing system lags behind. The D800 shines on a tripod shooting a landscape (although I recommend mirror up because the 800/e mirror slap is quite extreme). However, as great a camera as the D810 is (significant improvements from d800 and definitely worth the upgrade) I may not use it much for BIF anymore because the D500 focus acquisition, lock and tracking is just that good. I will, however, reach for it as my #1 for more static wildlife shots.

Since you have said changing gear is not an option right now, I'll offer a few tips that helped me with the d800 and BIF. Get to know the rear focus button and use it. The other thing that helped me was locking onto the birds (with rear focus button) IN ADVANCE of when you want to actually engage the shutter. The D800 is a slow mover for BIF focus acquisition, so helping it out by allowing it to "pre-focus" may be of help to you. Auto ISO slows frame rate. This killed me early on. I can't speak for the 200-500, but VR can slow things down too. You don't need it with high shutter speeds. Turn it off. I use LensAlign and can tell you that my D800 was all across the board. Some lenses +15 or more, others -10, still others 0. I can tell you that the cameras I have purchased after the D800 (d7200, d810 and d500) are 0 or within 5 +/- with all my lenses. If you haven't fine tuned the D800 at length, consider doing so. One more thing - AFC on the D800/e should only be used for objects that are moving. Use AFS for birds in trees or slow moving 4 legged animals. Just keep refocusing if need be. AFC on the D800/e tends to chatter. This was greatly improved on the 810/7200/500 and I have had great success even with perched birds (with these newer bodies) when I forget to change from AFC to AFS.

I hope I have helped and apologize for what is probably the longest first post on NR.

PatS

One other thing, group AF is not on the D800. It is a great feature on the newer bodies.

trolley

Right, so lousy weather/light this morning & 2 kingfishers flying, including towards me! At ISO 2000 I don't expect to be able to magnify much. What format do you want me to put the shots in (they're 14-bit raw at the mo)?
I also have some static shots at the same ISO

Ironheart

You can put the raw files on Dropbox or google drive. Or just put them through a basic conversion and post the full sized JPEG on Flickr we won't judge anything but the technicals. Sounds like we'll have a good worse case scenario

WestEndFoto

I imagine that the D820 will close the auto-focus performance gap it as with the D5/D500. Frame rate will be another story.

HipShot

From NR: http://nikonrumors.com/2014/01/18/birds-in-flight-photography-with-the-nikon-d800-and-d600-cameras.aspx/