Windows or MAC

WestEndFoto

I have 50,000 36mp photos in my Lightroom catalogue and it loads in a jiffy on my PC. It takes while to back up the catalogue though.

rmp

Here is my upgrade schedule: Year zero: new camera, year one. upgrade a lens or two, year three upgrade computer. Repeat.

PB_PM

There is almost no reason to upgrade a computer every three years anymore. CPU's have only improved 20-25% in speed over the last 6 1/2 years. A 6 year old i5 (2500k) or i7 (2700k) quad core is still more than up to the task, and overclocked they can match the stock performance of a new CPU. Storage speeds have improved, but you can stick an SSD into anything with SATA and you'll be fine. GPU's have improved a lot more, but any desktop can be improved with a card upgrade.

This is why I haven't had a notebook as my primary computer since college, they are no where near as upgradable, and cost more to get the same performance. Tablets are the way to go for travel.

Ironheart

I wear out a laptop after three years. Keyboard is fading, ports are loose, dings, scrapes, and I'm the head of IT. You should see what the rest of the company does to their computers

PB_PM

Which I why I don't buy notebooks, they are toss away computers that cannot really be fixed or properly upgraded for long term use.

I realize that some jobs/work styles require a notebook, so that is a different issue. I just don't see them as a good value for the money, based on how I use a computer (which is at home 100% of the time). For mobile use I use a smartphone or tablet, which have shorter life spans due to batteries etc.

Vipmediastar_JZ

I think my macbook pro mid 2012 is dying or at least the LCD is. I noticed this in the past when I had calibrated it then my saturation levels were way off. Recently the highlights and shadows were distorted. I thought my shoot was wasted. Turns out after a OS software update and some tightening of covers and cables helped because the image came back to normal. Anyways I do plan to upgrade this year. I may go with the Imac 27 once the new series is released if the macbook holds up. Having a macbook to me is useful because I can edit in the room or living room without beign tied down to the desk. But I would prefer a more powerfull option vs what the notebook offers.
Recently I just do LR edits on the iphone and I have android tablet that i have used as a secondary screen or with DSLRDashboard. On a particular 3 hour away shoot taking the notebook helped with on location culling.
when I second shoot the primary photographer copies my SD onto the macbook and returns the SD cards back the same night.

BabaGanoush

I'm so old I remember when computers had glass doors on them so you could WALK inside them. In my lifetime, I've used Windows machines and Macs. To me they are nothing more than tools to get other things done. I don't fuss over them. I'm perfectly happy to use what I'm given or what I have, no matter. I've been on the Mac for a dozen years by now, currently on a Mac Pro desktop. I have no big quibble with the hardware, although Apple's track record on the OS has been abysmal since Snow Leopard. El Capitan has many bugs in it even years after its initial release.

A fact of life is that the Windows v Mac debate will shortly come to an end as Apple exits the computer business in favor of its more profitable lines of business in mobile phones and tablets. I expect the next laptops from Apple will be their second to last issue, while the next desktops will be their final fling in that product line. If I'm still in the market for a new desktop a decade from now, I'll just buy a Windows machine and move on. It's not as if I'm replacing my wife; a computer is just a machine that serves as a tool. Change is inevitable. There's no sense getting aggravated over it. Heck, if I were in the market for a laptop today, I wouldn't consider an Apple machine even for a minute. The HP Spectre looks like a mighty fine machine to me and sells for half the price of a comparable Mac.

Snowleopard

Laptops are upgradable, your just picking the wrong laptops...lol (Seriously) Whether you buy a pc laptop or a macbook, 90% of laptop manufacturers (since about 2012-2013) use something called BGA which most people don't know about unless you are building computers BGA is like public enemy number 1 to laptop builders.

Apple was the first one to use BGA Parts and HP and Dell followed, and then Dell took down Alienware which is a crime.

Basically BGA means in english that all the important parts of your laptop are soldered on to the motherboard, including the CPU, GPU and ram. In theory there are less chances for failure cause robots mount all the parts to the motherboard and they cannot be removed easily.

BGA allows for your credit card thin laptops like Macbooks that cannot be fixed, or upgraded that end up in your pile of $1500 investments that turn into $1500 bricks cause you have to replace it with a new laptop.

When I went with Alienware in 2012, I could still replace and upgrade the CPU,GPU, RAM and Hard Drive. Infact, I got a mSATA port, 2 hard drive slots that work in raid configuration and a blue ray burner, that if I choose that I do not need the blu ray burner, it can be swapped out for a caddy that takes a 3rd hard drive ( or 3 SSD's).

Now, that Alienware laptop is not 1mm thick and yes I can fry eggs and bacon on it with out the proper cooling. But I will promise you that it will run rings around the same intel based (IBM Compatible) pc branded a "Macbook: by a company called "Apple" running BSD (which is completely free) with a X Window Manager called the "Finder" by a company called Apple.

Now, if you want the power of the desktop Mac Pro (The plastic black trash can thingy) that costs $6000+ with an Intel (IBM Compatible) Xeon server processor running BSD with an X Window Manager called Finder by a company called Apple....

There is a company called Eurocom. They make a laptop with an Intel Xeon Server Processor.... that fully loaded has 4 hard drive bays, a optical drive of your choice.... up to 128gb of DDR-4 laptop memory. It is available with a 17 inch 1080p, 4k and possibly a 5 or 8k display now with 2 graphics cards.

It retails for roughly the same price as your Mac, it has more power than your mac and it is in a laptop form factor for about the same price as a Mac Pro Desktop trashcan PC running OS X.

Rounding that up, The way I manage photography through computers is, everything gets done on laptops. They are just laptops that can handle the work load.

Then everything gets backed up from the laptops to a room with 2 42U racks containing 8 Dell Poweredge Servers at home with a SAN that has 256TB of storage so the data is not on the laptops that long.

The SAN provides me protection against data loss when hard drives fail cause I can replace drives that fail without loosing data. Keep in mind that Apple tried to complete in the commercial server market and crashed and burned. You don't even see Mac OS or OS X servers in Apples data centers.

PB_PM

Snowleopard said:

Laptops are upgradable, your just picking the wrong laptops...lol

lol right back at you. You've upgraded the screen for your notebook have you? Got a bigger screen (not external) and used it? Upgraded the keyboard? Changed the trackpad for a newer better one? You say you can upgrade the CPU, but are there any available? Yeah, I didn't think so. All those things are often easily done with a desktop (with some variables of course). Need a new, bigger screen? Easy, buy one and plug it in. Need a newer, better, maybe mechanical keyboard? Buy one, plug it in. Need dual GPUs? Slap one in another PCI-E slot.

Seriously, I'm not talking about basic stuff like the RAM, HDD/SSD or in a very limited number high end notebooks you might be able to change the the CPU/GPU, assuming the manufacture still uses the same cards (doesn't happen much between generations).

Vipmediastar_JZ

@Snowleopard Some good info you provided. Ill look into Eurocom. That is definitely something I would want.
I have been out of the PC part of IT for over a decade that I haven't caught with all these things.
I do like the zero issues of MAC OS. turn on mac, edit in LR and PS. run backup with CCC. Turn off. Repeat next day. I disliked the experience I had since windows 3. to win 7. I do like the Destkop feature where you can add drives and build raids and less expensive but the windows os experience hurts my head with the time limits i have.

Snowleopard

@PB_PM Actually, Yes, there are compatible monitor replacements for (at least Alienware) because all the cases are the same and all the screens line up. I went from a 1080p 60Hz to a matching 120Hz screen 4 years after buying the laptop (and yes I know how to dis-assemble the laptop to do the upgrade). It isn't a joke, with the right laptop's you can upgrade anything period.

But lets talk about screens anyway..... That laptop's dedicated graphics card drives the laptop's screen, 2 external Dell 24 inch monitors over Mini Display Port, 1 Projector over HDMI out to a 128 inch screen using a wall in a room and I still have the antiquated VGA port left it I wanted an additional screen. So I can have a screen as small as 17 inches or as big as I want with the projector.

The only way possible to do that on a Mac is through Thunderbolt and it will not drive that many screens at resolution with external storage and other high bandwidth devices connected.

GPU's..... I have dual Nvidia 980m's with 8gb DDR 5 in the laptop.... upgraded from the ones that came with the laptop that had 2gb DDR 4 originally.

As far as the track pad and keyboard.... why would I change a fully backlit (RGB) 16.7million color combination keyboard? When in the office I plug in a Razor Chroma mechanical keyboard with a chroma wireless mouse.

And actually since 2012, the compatible Intel Extreme Edition CPU is still available in 2017 and it is less than half the price it was in 2012, so yes. I will be upgrading the CPU this year some time.

So why do I need a desktop anymore? :-D. The function of the desktop and and external hard drives for storage where turned over to the Dell Rack Servers and SAN.

And I end up with a more than capable laptop for on site live editing right after the photos are taken. No renting computers at the larger studios I might use off site when I am away from the studio locally.

Snowleopard

Eurocom is the high end PC Laptop retailer I would recommend for a "real" computer. there is also Sager, Clevo, and Origin PC (They were the founders of Alienware that sold out to Dell). All nice laptops and when you compare the cost/performance of what you are really getting (Operating System aside since they are all PC's with Intel hardware these days whether you buy a mac or pc). You will see that you are getting a much better deal with them than Apple.

If you want a small laptop to run windows on in the price range of a macbook (I am using $1500 as a reference point) look at the Eurocom 14 and 15 inch laptops between $1400-$1999 and if you know your hardware, you know you are getting a steal (over Apple) for what you are paying.

MegapixelSchnitzel

I used to have an old Toshiba laptop. It still has a use. It keeps my garage door open when my hands are full. After 10 years with a Mac, I wouldn't even begin to consider anything but Apple.

DenverShooter

MegapixelSchnitzel said:

I used to have an old Toshiba laptop. It still has a use. It keeps my garage door open when my hands are full. After 10 years with a Mac, I wouldn't even begin to consider anything but Apple.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I have a couple of Dell Latitude Laptops. One can't find it's wifi and bluetooth hardware.. Even Dell couldn't figure that one out... Their answer was to swap the motherboard.

They are superb doorstops however...

Denver Shooter

manhattanboy

count me in the Mac group as well. I have to unfortunately keep my old mac laptop around as Adobe stopped selling stand alone creative suites and I refused to be extorted mob style by monthly pricing ;(

Killerbob

I think I have let me views on this "religion"-war known previously, but just want to add;

As a CIO in an IT consultancy house, servicing a few hundred customers in Greenland, counting probably a few thousand users, I am often asked for a recommendation as to what PC to buy. I always find myself saying it depends on what you need it for.

Corporate users only using the most common office applications, but accessing a larger corporate network as well as ERP/DMS/Process tools, Windows PCs are probably the best way forward (and this I may have to change soon, as IBM for instance have switched to Macs and this is seriously paying off for them). There are a few number of applications which will not run on Macs, but funny enough, a Mac runs Windows much better than any Windows PC, in BootCamp or through Parallels:)

However, for any smaller outfits, who may be using hosting (Citrix/RDP) for their ERP solutions, and the normal array of office applications, Mac PCs are the cheaper decision in the long run. Sure, the acquisition price is higher, but that is money easily saved in longevity of the hardware as well as the significantly cheaper support.

And, for anyone working in multimedia there is ONLY one answer - Macs.

Snowleopard

Killerbob said:

I think I have let me views on this "religion"-war known previously, but just want to add;

As a CIO in an IT consultancy house, servicing a few hundred customers in Greenland, counting probably a few thousand users, I am often asked for a recommendation as to what PC to buy. I always find myself saying it depends on what you need it for.

Corporate users only using the most common office applications, but accessing a larger corporate network as well as ERP/DMS/Process tools, Windows PCs are probably the best way forward (and this I may have to change soon, as IBM for instance have switched to Macs and this is seriously paying off for them). There are a few number of applications which will not run on Macs, but funny enough, a Mac runs Windows much better than any Windows PC, in BootCamp or through Parallels:)

However, for any smaller outfits, who may be using hosting (Citrix/RDP) for their ERP solutions, and the normal array of office applications, Mac PCs are the cheaper decision in the long run. Sure, the acquisition price is higher, but that is money easily saved in longevity of the hardware as well as the significantly cheaper support.

And, for anyone working in multimedia there is ONLY one answer - Macs.

While I see your points, it bothers me that a company like Apple, that had a computer like the Mac Plus with SCSI ports for hard drives (which was a "high end" technology" back when the Mac Plus came out); Is building pc's that run Mac OS or OS X, etc that are limited and need to be replaced any time a part fails.

If I could get a 2017 Macbook Pro with a 4 or 5k (17 inch) screen, a full sized keyboard, an upgradeable CPU, an industry standard MXM 3.0 mobile video card that I could upgrade from 2gb of video memory to an 8gb card, at least 2 hard drive bays and 2 M.2 slots for PCI based SSD's, 64 or 128gb of laptop DDR4 ram, 4 mini displayport connectors for monitors (or a docking station port on the bottom), etc.

Based on that, I can't see the "longevity" on a sealed system that cannot be upgraded and the only reason it weighs less than a pound is because all the parts are running at half the "normal" spec to reduce heat generation.

Forget overclocking a Macbook, and then the premium for the Apple name or more specifically Mac OS that runs on PC hardware.

Ironheart

Mac laptops, including the Air, are not sealed, and they have fans. Also, we open them up and repair them all of the time. They may look sealed, but if you look closely there are screws everywhere, kinda like a Nikon camera

I just pulled apart an iMac and upgraded almost everything, CPU, replaced the disks with SSDs, upgraded the RAM, and replaced the optical drive with a writer. I could have swapped the video hardware if I felt the need.

The equivalent of that old SCSI port is the multiple thunderbolt ports, plenty fast enough for external storage, monitors, etc...

There are folks that appreciate the stability and longevity of a system that isn't pushing it's operational and environmental envelope, for speed they will never need or use.

Sure, if you want a hot-rod, get a PC, and go to town. That is exactly NOT what the majority of the public wants. They want reliable transportation, err... computing. Don't get me wrong, I love a hot-rod, and I have modified factory spec cars (and computers) my whole life. But I also know that when I replace the factory turbochargers with aftermarket that produce twice the horsepower, I am either going to have to spend a boat-load of $$ to upgrade everything from the valve seats and springs, the piston rings, the tie-rods, and the crankshaft, or realize that I'm going to likely be shorting the lifespan of my engine, and/or risk flaming the whole thing.

Similarly, overclocking without also upgrading the heat sink, power supply, and likely putting in a liquid cooling heat exchanger, is going to either reduce the life of my system, or risk smoking the whole thing The type of system you describe is not for everyone, and would be unsupportable in a commercial environment.

Your point is valid and well taken, but isn't the mainstream. Even gamers have gone to pre-built systems from alienware an the like, although the hard-core gamers still like to build their own. At that point you are talking about saving a few hundred at most, not to mention the time and effort to gather all of the parts and assemble it. I'm doing exactly this with my nephew at the moment, he wants the "bragging rights" of building his own gaming system, but we aren't going to save any money after you factor in my hourly wage

If it makes you happy, go for it!

DenverShooter

Just had a Samsung 2TB 850 Pro SSHD installed along with swapping out the battery and replacing the keyboard (wore out the command, option and shift keys) on my 2011 MPB. BlackMagic speed test is running 445 MBPS on writes and 520 MBPS on reads. It should be good for several more years of use/abuse.

And its the Energizer Bunny. It just runs and runs and runs.

Denver Shooter

Killerbob

Currently in my household we have; a maxed out Mac Pro 2013 (iCan), a maxed out 2015 MacBook Pro, a maxed out 2013 MacBook Air, a normal spec 2011 MacBook Air, a 2012 Mac Mini, as well as a number of older Macs; My old trusty 2008 Mac Pro still runs and my original 2008 MacBook Pro is being used by my mother-in-law.

Macs simply keep going and going and going. Sure I have upgraded my 2008 Mac Pro to decent specs, put a new videocard in it, SSDs, more RAM, as well as hacked it to be able to install Sierra, and you know what, it still flies, boots in 15 seconds, and I can use it for anything. I like my new Mac Pro as it has 12 cores and Adobe is playtime for it, but ol' trusty still gets milage. As for the older MacBooks, you can easily put in new SSDs and more RAM.

Once you go Mac, you never go back:)

PB_PM

Unless you are a long term Apple user who is simply fed up with their hardware choices and moving to Windows...

MegapixelSchnitzel

I learned a long time ago to never hang pictures on Windows.

DenverShooter

MegapixelSchnitzel said:

I learned a long time ago to never hang pictures on Windows.

+1000

LOLROF

Denver Shooter

PB_PM

MegapixelSchnitzel said:

I learned a long time ago to never hang pictures on Windows.

What no stained glass in your house?

Snowleopard

Well, we can crack jokes about breaking windows, but since Steve Jobs passing, it seems like Mac OS. OSX, IOS, what ever they want to call their OS; it seems to be breaking windows everywhere because the quality control Steve Jobs stood for is no more, gone, it will never come back.

And those commercials for the new Ipad Pro are really sneaky...... "And it does not get ""PC Viruses""...... what is that suppose to mean?.

For those of us that remember the first time Steve Jobs put a commercial out saying that Mac's don't get viruses, it didn't even take 12 hours for him to regret ever saying that Mac's don't get viruses.

IT's like Mac's are chew toys for when dogs are breaking in their adult teeth.