Z7-Z6 Lenses

WestEndFoto

Because it is the Nikon strategy that makes sense and despite the fact that they don’t know anything, as PB_PM pointed out, the Nikon reps agree that it is likely.

Remember Series E. Nikon has done it before, most of their volume is at the lower end and they need the lower end to feed their higher end. With a few strategic lens choices as well, they can accommodate a crop sensor with out being too concerned about absolescence when the cost advantage for crop sensors narrow.

Maybe not a sucker bet for the counter party, but I will bet with a handicap all day long for this.

PB_PM says gambling is dangerous, but we do it all the time where I work.

donaldejose

Still testing in the "real world" but as of now my opinion is that S lenses are better than F mount lenses and likely will continue to be so as the S lens line up is filled out. Also, using both now it is my opinion is that DSLR bodies are still better all around bodies than Z bodies except or a few more specialized uses like WYSIWYG portraiture, still life and interiors (such as real estate so you can more easily balance constant lighting) and video with the Z6. However, Nikon is going to fix the weaknesses in the Z line with software updates (such as improved focus and eye focus) and as it produces a Z8 (with two card slots) and Z9 (with two card slots and built in vertical grip) (just a prediction) and a Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4, Z5 (somewhere in there most likely Z3 and Z5) low cost bodies with a DX sensor. We likely will see Z DX bodies built smaller and out of plastic just as we have DSLR bodies in the D3xx and D5xx lines now. But the cost of a good EVF makes it hard not to produce a low cost DX body in the range of the D3xx line. In other words, Nikon will "mirror" its existing DSLR line in mirrorless Z bodies and will continue both lines in production until technology makes the mirrorless bodies clearly superior in every way to DSLRs. Five years from now we may see the end of new Nikon DSLRs and new F-mount lenses. Thus, the D6 to be announced next year will still be a DSLR but the D7 may be a mirrorless D7 or ZD7. I think the S lenses are sort of "leading the way" in that they are superior to F-mount lenses and soon Z bodies will be superior to DSLR bodies. I wouldn't worry about the new S 2.8 zooms being "too heavy" for the Z6 and Z7 bodies because I think we will soon see larger Z bodies in a Z8 and a Z9. I almost always use vertical grips attached to my DSLRs now and would welcome a larger Z body with either built in or attachable vertical grip.

mhedges

Personally after using Z6 since launch I think Z bodies are better than DSLR for all but a few specialized applications (mostly fast action and long telephoto work). And even then the Z6 is not bad - just not class-leading.

I agree new product development for DSLR bodies and F mount lenses will end, but 5 years is too long a timetable. I'm giving it 2 years.

donaldejose

mhedges: you could be right. Sometimes technology advances very fast, much faster than expected. Do you agree the soon to be announced D6 (about 24 mp) will be a DSLR not mirrorless? I am thinking it will be the last D single digit series pro DSLRs unless Nikon attempts to stretch its use of that body by putting out a D6x (about 70 mp) or D6s (high ISO sensor). Also, do you think replacements for the D750 (in 2019) and D850 (in 2020) will be DSLRs and not mirrorless? This would put the transition to mirrorless in the D7xx and D8xx lines at the following updates which would be in about 2024-25). See, my thinking is that we will see one more round of DSLR updates and then the following update due about 4 or 5 years from now will be mirrorless. I think the next replacements for the D3xxx and D5xxx bodies could easily be mirrorless now except for one problem, the cost of the EVF. If Nikon can get that cost down so they can produce a mirrorless Z3xx which sells for $400 they will do so ASAP and that would be a good marketing move.

Symphotic

After a few months I am finding the Z7 exceeds my expectations, especially with the S-line lenses. I originally thought it was going to be a second body and I'd be using it with the FTZ adapter, but I've pretty much got the 24-70 f/4 on all the time and it is my main shooter. Anything special, such as telephoto or ultra-wide, gets done on the D850, which feels better for use with heavy lenses.
The 24-70 gets a lot of use. I have not used the 35 f/1.8 much yet. 35 mm was my favorite focal length in my film days, but I just don't use it much any more. I have not ordered the 50 f/1.8 yet. Has anyone tried it out?
I'm just finishing up the commissioning of an underwater imaging system in Oklahoma now, so once that is done I'll head back home and maybe see about getting a 50 while I wait for my 14-30.

donaldejose

I think all S lenses to date are great. Click on the image to go through to flickr to see the full data on the following photos shot under LED lighting at ISO 640. Looking forward to the 85mm f1.8 out this year.

35mm S 1.8 at 1.8


50mm S 1.8 at 1.8

Symphotic

A charming princess!
It is amazing that we don't think for a second before shooting at ISO 640 anymore. Maybe I'll order up the 50 in February. I don't have a job for it now, but I am less and less inclined to use the FTZ adapter for anything.

PB_PM

Nice pictures, but would never know by looking that it came from a Z camera or S lens, any DSLR made in the last 5 years could have produced those images.

donaldejose

PB_PM: Agreed, I wasn't doing a lens test, no test chart, no change in f-stops, etc. Photography sites will be doing those metrics. I was not trying to show something the S lens can do which an F lens cannot do. Symphonic had asked "Has anyone tried it out?" and since I had recently used it I responded with my opinion and a few photos. I don't even like to see little girls all made up like that. In my opinion it teaches young girls the wrong things about how they should get their self esteem. I was just doing this to satisfy the girl's mother and grandmother who think "beauty queen princess dress up" is something they want this little girl to experience. To me the practical advantage of the Z body in this situation was the fast WYSIWYG EVF interface in place of the much slower liveview interface. You have to experience using that interface so see if you like it better than an OVF. It is not something you can show in a picture.

BVS

PB_PM said:

Nice pictures, but would never know by looking that it came from a Z camera or S lens, any DSLR made in the last 5 years could have produced those images.

You could probably say that about just about any image. The advances in recent cameras is less about image quality improvements and more about quality of life/ease of use improvements I think. For example, IBIS means you might be able to leave the tripod at home, EVF makes it faster to compose the image, face/eye detect means you don't have to waste time juggling AF points, flip screen means you don't have crawl on the ground, usable live view means you can shoot from the hip if you want, etc.

Searcy

I'm not trying to figure out if me and my new camera can make a better image than you and your old camera. I trying to figure out if the new cameras features will allow me to make a better image than I was able to make with my old camera.

For what I do EVF is a total game changer.

PB_PM

BVS said:

The advances in recent cameras is less about image quality improvements and more about quality of life/ease of use improvements I think.

Absolutely, frankly this is the best comment anyone has made so far, the rest is just fluff and marketing hype being repeated. The question is, do the S lenses for the Z mount actually do that? In reference to comments by several other users, we aren’t talking about EFVs and rotating screens in this thread, but lenses.

From that point of view, beyond test charts, which I care little for, I see no “quality of life” or “easy of use” coming from the new crop of lenses, other than that they likely focus better on Z cameras. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just a statement of fact, just as my previous comment was.

I am not trying to bash Z mount cameras or lenses, which might be what some are thinking, just making the point for people looking at these lenses that might have a bunch of high quality Nikkor F-mount lenses already. Those people would likely be better served using the adapter with what they already have, in the short term or until the lens line up is more filled out.

mhedges

Well here is an image that I would have had a lot of trouble getting with a DSLR (note I am not saying it is a great image, just an example). I had the focus point all the way to the right, well outside of any FF DSLR's focus area, and I made use of IBIS to allow me to handhold a non-VR lens at low shutter speeds (also note I am not great at handholding).

tc88

There is a DSLR technique called focus and recompose. It's pretty straight forward if practiced.

mhedges

Yes I am aware of that. But it's still not all that easy to do when dealing with things extremely close to you that have very narrow DOF, especially with ultrawide angle lenses with field curvature issues. And also I have had issues with af being off due to the need for focus fine tune. With my Z6 I can just take the picture and not have to mess around with workarounds.

spraynpray

I would have focussed on the end of the thread with my clunky old D850...

donaldejose

"I am not trying to bash Z mount cameras or lenses, which might be what some are thinking, just making the point for people looking at these lenses that might have a bunch of high quality Nikkor F-mount lenses already. Those people would likely be better served using the adapter with what they already have, in the short term or until the lens line up is more filled out."

True, unless you are chasing ultimate sharpness and buying Sigma Art lenses instead of Nikon glass (as I and some others have been doing recently). If the new S lenses is just as sharp as the Sigma Art line we can remain in the Nikon ecosystem. Some reviewers seem to be finding just that. Of course, we have to wait for more test charts and IMATEST scores comparing S with F and Art to be sure but I decided not to get either the Sigma Art 85 or 105 or 135 for portraits and wait for the S 85 1.8 and S 70-200 f2.8 out this year. (I may be selling my Sigma Art 35 and 50 once those scores come out.) I have a 50 year old screw mount Russian Jupitor 11 135mm f4 lens which takes amazingly good photos but it is a pain to use. It has no click stops, the markings are barely legible, and I have to use f8 to get sharp eyelashes. I am thinking the EVF focus peaking feature of the Z bodies will make it much easier to use. Have not had time to photograph with it on my Z6.

BVS

donaldejose said:

True, unless you are chasing ultimate sharpness and buying Sigma Art lenses instead of Nikon glass (as I and some others have been doing recently). If the new S lenses is just as sharp as the Sigma Art line we can remain in the Nikon ecosystem.

Yes, the S line is proving to be an interesting counter to the Sigma Art line. Instead of trying to out-compete Sigma in the same category of lenses, Nikon has changed up the categories. With the lower 1.8 end, Nikon is now providing sharpness equal to or better than the equivalent Art lens, but in a smaller, lighter, cheaper package, at the expense of a bit of max aperture and bokeh. On the high end, Nikon is upping the ante by skipping 1.4 and going to 1.2, helping to justify making them big, heavy and expensive, and leaving the Sigma's floating in the middle somewhere.

WestEndFoto

The Sigmas won’t even float in the middle. Nikon is going for Zeiss and skipping Sigma. And if one were to hold an Otus 55 in one hand and the 50mm 1.8S in the other, it would seem more impressive.

I suspect that the 50mm 1.2S will have similar IQ to the 1.8 at 1.8, perhaps with more emphasis on Bokeh. I think that the questions will be bokeh, how heavy, how much and how sharp wide open.

donaldejose

"Nikon is going for Zeiss and skipping Sigma. " That may be correct and would be marketing brilliance if they can pull it off. Same IQ as Zeiss at one fourth the price. We likely will see f1.4 glass (and f2.8 zooms) with higher IQ than the f1.8 glass (and F4 zoom) now out. We have not yet seen the high end professional level S glass. Let's hope for the best.

WestEndFoto

Re reading the DP Review, the Sigma can’t compete with the Nikon in resolution and coma (Spraynpray, take notice) at wide apertures. Also, purple fringing is a thing of the past. And the Nikon is cheaper, lighter, smaller and weather sealed.

mhedges

I only have the 24-70 but I am very happy with it. I love getting top of the line performance without having to pay for (or carry around) f 2.8 lenses.

WestEndFoto

MHedges, I think what you allude to is a stroke of strategic genius on Nikon’s part. I see myself owning some focal lengths in multiple apertures.

donaldejose

Me too WEF, along with a Z6 and Z8 or Z9 body. Hoping for the best this year and the next few years. If Nikon can "fix" the follow focus issue and add eye focus with a software update and then produce a Z body or two with dual card slots and vertical grip they will have a winner!

WestEndFoto

Absolutely Donaldejose!