Canon announcement, does Nikon still exist?

Ton14

You can read it everywhere: Canon PowerShot G5 X Mark II has fast 24-120mm equiv. lens and pop-up EVF, etc. etc.

Does Nikon still exist in this (compact) world, I'm waiting for years now, only one menu system is enough for me, but waiting forever for a new Coolpix A or so is a bit too long and this Canon also makes better photo's then a phone.

The only thing we read as a rumor is that Nikon is working on it, time to here more I think.

NSXTypeR

To be very honest, I stopped waiting for a small sensor Nikon camera, I have Sony RX100 MkI and have been doing very well with it.

Honestly, with my Pixel 3, even the Sony has been ignored a fair amount.

Ton14

Yes, stopped waiting too, I had a Sony A6000, but the menu system drove me crazy.
Waiting for a pancake lens for the Z6.

PB_PM

Nikon wisely bowed out on those high end compact cameras, sales in that segment are shrinking fast. The only compacts that are really selling well are the underwater ones, and maga-zooms. Nikon has those areas covered,

NSXTypeR

PB_PM said:

Nikon wisely bowed out on those high end compact cameras, sales in that segment are shrinking fast. The only compacts that are really selling well are the underwater ones, and maga-zooms. Nikon has those areas covered,

Nikon kind of quit with underwater cameras.

I don't see anywhere to go but up, not everyone wants a DSLR or a Nikon 1 camera (RIP). When you don't give people options, they're going to go somewhere else. I'm not sure why Nikon is so stubborn they'd rather lose sales to other manufacturers, they had a product that was literally about to ship and canceled it last minute.

PB_PM

Keep in mind the cost of R&D to make a product, if they cannot sell enough to cover those costs it's not worth while. I doubt that Nikon would have canceled the CX sensor compact projects if there was any expectation of strong sales. If I recall correctly it was even mentioned when the projects were canceled that there was no hope of recovering development costs through sales, so they just swallowed the cost of development and abandon them. Companies in the modern era are ruled by the desire of shareholders, not customers, why don't people get this yet?

daveznspace

also as I understand it the p900 & p1000 sell a ton which has kept them in the top 3 market share for this category.

NSXTypeR

PB_PM said:

Keep in mind the cost of R&D to make a product, if they cannot sell enough to cover those costs it's not worth while. I doubt that Nikon would have canceled the CX sensor compact projects if there was any expectation of strong sales. If I recall correctly it was even mentioned when the projects were canceled that there was no hope of recovering development costs through sales, so they just swallowed the cost of development and abandon them. Companies in the modern era are ruled by the desire of shareholders, not customers, why don't people get this yet?

It's definitely a race to the bottom, and I understand resources are finite. But when Nikon is a small player really only known for cameras and maybe medical equipment, can Nikon really afford not to be visible and be perceived as throwing in the towel? We are all fairly loyal Nikon users in this forum and I feel like most of us would have bought a Nikon product had an appropriate product been produced. Instead we get a discontinued interchangeable small sensor lineup and a nonexistent large sensor compact. And a high end full frame mirrorless lineup along with a half assed crop sensor DSLR line that still has missing lenses.

PB_PM

None of which are the real reason Nikon's dropping overall market share. Compact cameras and low end DSRL's (D3xxx/5xxx) with kit lenses were the cash cows, but that ship has sailed and the market share reflects that. For many people the DSLR or compact they have is doing what it needs to do, if they haven't shelved them for the more easy to transport smartphone camera. For many people the days of a standalone camera are long gone.

High end DSLRs and lenses were, and are, much smaller part of Nikon's sales than forums like this would leave you to believe, since it's just a vocal minority. It's not a lack of DX lenses, or high end compacts that have hurt Nikon's market position, it's that they are still stuck in 1990's thinking of big box (camera), lens, a 1980's UI, end R&D and put it to market is going to cut it. The current slap dash, afterthought, mobile software says all you need to know about it.

They need to put way more effort into integration with non-Nikon hardware, software, and possibly even third party add-ons. That might mean partnerships with Apple, Google and others. They need to develop software and hardware that allows total control from a smartphone. At some point a smartphone could even replace the back screen on the camera for that matter. Nikon should also be looking into next generation technology, new optics that replace glass and make the cameras actually smaller and lighter weight. There is far more to the future of the camera than taking away mirrors, Nikon lost that battle to Sony years ago, and they need to look elsewhere to remain a viable option for camera buyers. Nikon has spent the last 35 years following other camera makers (Canon, now Sony) to releasing new tech, if they want to survive they need to come up with something new, not follow up when it looks safe to do so.

WestEndFoto

I was speaking to the CEO of a company in Canada that sells a lot of Nikon gear (multiple locations) that shall remain nameless. They are seeing full frame, in DSLR and Mirrorless, increase in sales this year. I don't think all is as bad as many would make it out to be.

Ton14

Even much better (for me) the, just announced, Sigma FP Camera no price yet. Full Frame, 113 × 70 × 45mm (4.43 × 2.75 × 1.78″).

This, with a pancake lens on it in my pocket as "walk around" camera, the DSLR, now mirrorless, as the workhorse and I can make all the photo's I want.

@WestEndFoto yes, it only becomes better and better every year, unbelievable what happened from the Nikon D70 kit, with a 18-70mm in 2004 for $ 1299.-, which was called the first pro camera, till now.

PB_PM

The first "pro" Nikon DSLR was the D1, released in 1999, for $4999, the D70 in 2004 wasn't even close to first.

WestEndFoto said:

I was speaking to the CEO of a company in Canada that sells a lot of Nikon gear (multiple locations) that shall remain nameless. They are seeing full frame, in DSLR and Mirrorless, increase in sales this year. I don't think all is as bad as many would make it out to be.

Nikon's global market share fell from 22%-19% over the last 12 months. It's not an earth shattering drop, until you consider that only 8-9 years ago Nikon held 32% market share.

mhedges

Ton14 said:

Even much better (for me) the, just announced, Sigma FP Camera no price yet. Full Frame, 113 × 70 × 45mm (4.43 × 2.75 × 1.78″).

This, with a pancake lens on it in my pocket as "walk around" camera, the DSLR, now mirrorless, as the workhorse and I can make all the photo's I want.

@WestEndFoto yes, it only becomes better and better every year, unbelievable what happened from the Nikon D70 kit, with a 18-70mm in 2004 for $ 1299.-, which was called the first pro camera, till now.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on the Sigma...

spraynpray

@NSXTypeR I was surprised to read you call the crop sensor line-up half-assed. The D7xxx is excellent really, and the D500 only lacked 4mP (or maybe a few more) to stop me going back to crop. You still shoot crop don't you?

NSXTypeR

spraynpray said:

@NSXTypeR I was surprised to read you call the crop sensor line-up half-assed. The D7xxx is excellent really, and the D500 only lacked 4mP (or maybe a few more) to stop me going back to crop. You still shoot crop don't you?

Half assed as in still missing lenses. DX never got reasonably priced lenses other than the 35mm 1.8. Nor did we get a fast zoom like the Sima 18-35mm 1.8. The bodies are fine, I'm perfectly ok with the D500 and D7500.

NSXTypeR

PB_PM said:

They need to put way more effort into integration with non-Nikon hardware, software, and possibly even third party add-ons. That might mean partnerships with Apple, Google and others. They need to develop software and hardware that allows total control from a smartphone. At some point a smartphone could even replace the back screen on the camera for that matter. Nikon should also be looking into next generation technology, new optics that replace glass and make the cameras actually smaller and lighter weight. There is far more to the future of the camera than taking away mirrors, Nikon lost that battle to Sony years ago, and they need to look elsewhere to remain a viable option for camera buyers. Nikon has spent the last 35 years following other camera makers (Canon, now Sony) to releasing new tech, if they want to survive they need to come up with something new, not follow up when it looks safe to do so.

No arguments there, I am always amazed at what Google can do with the Pixel 3. But I've always wondered, what if Sony had developed the RX100 with Google? I mean, the hardware is already made, so that's half the battle. But Nikon never made an RX100 equivalent, so you can't even start development on the amazing software.

The Pixel 3 is proof enough, it's already good enough in low light that I don't carry my RX100 anymore. It's also much easier to share and send photos in terms of workflow.

mhedges

A7R4 looks killer. 61 mp at 10 FPS with great AF, and it appears they tweaked the body design for better ergonomics.

BVS

Ton14 said:

Even much better (for me) the, just announced, Sigma FP Camera no price yet. Full Frame, 113 × 70 × 45mm (4.43 × 2.75 × 1.78″).

There's also the Sony RX1R II which is about the same size and weight and comes with a lens and EVF. It might be getting a little long in the tooth now though. I wonder if there will be a version III soon.

PB_PM

mhedges said:

A7R4 looks killer. 61 mp at 10 FPS with great AF, and it appears they tweaked the body design for better ergonomics.

Yup, RIP Nikon Z7/D850. Guess the Z8 will be $1000 more than the Z7...

WestEndFoto

The Z7 will be fine. It will just get iterated. It’s proper price point when all settles is the D750 price at launch.

WestEndFoto

And it just occurred to me. My D860 will have 60mp plus!

tc88

DSLR and mirrorless typically use different sensors. DSLR has little use for on chip AF sensors. Having different sets of AF points (between the on sensor and AF module) for DSLR will also only confuse people. Besides, D850 is one of the Nikon that is top of the category, that I doubt it will be updated soon. Mirrorless is where Nikon is working on, and also where the future is.

WestEndFoto

DSLR has lots of use for those on chip sensors if they want to improve Liveview or Video focus performance.

PB_PM

tc88 said:

DSLR has little use for on chip AF sensors.

Guess nobody told Canon that, since many of their modern DSLRs have on sensor AF points to aid with liveview and video focusing. They even made the new STM focusing motor for some lenses just to work with them.

spraynpray

PB_PM said:

tc88 said:

DSLR has little use for on chip AF sensors.

Guess nobody told Canon that, since many of their modern DSLRs have on sensor AF points to aid with liveview and video focusing. They even made the new STM focusing motor for some lenses just to work with them.

Which is why Canons live view focusing makes Nikon's seem like an absolute joke. Come on Nikon, get with the program!

mhedges

I'm guessing any new DSLR will use sensors with PDAF as developed for the Z's. So they will have much better live view / video AF.