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Comments
Anyone read Thom Hogan's website ? I do from time to time......I was reading it just yesterday; get this.....Thom was shooting NBA basket ball, way back when; ( with MANUAL FOCUS lenses ) Ever try that ? I'd say AF was one gadget that we really needed ! ( but being lucky enough to have been shooting Nikon before digital made all of Canon's great FD lenses into paper weights, I'm still shooting stuff with a very sharp, 30 year old, 300 mm f4 Nikkor; not necessarily because I love to, more because I don't even need a camera bad enough to cough up enough bucks to buy a new 300mm f2.8 ED, AF-S, G, FX and VRlll ( and I still have a bunch of old lenes laying around. (Boy, I sure hope Nikon doesn't see this!)
The P mode is a tool, and as with every tool, you just have to know how and when (or even if) to use it. It simplifies things, but doesn't necessarily produce the results one is hoping for, which is obvious if you look at how it works. Hence the idea it should become smarter. Assuming that someone, who asks for a tool to become a really clever tool, is not up to your own standards is pretty simple minded IMO. The comparison to autofocus is very valid. May I remind everyone, that an expeed processor is nothing but a very expensive P mode in itself. Color extrapolation algorithms and all. Sniggering over the P mode in a *digital* camera this far down the road is really... pretty academic if you ask me.
Not advocating its use here.. but as someone, who's noticed the shortcomings I say: if it's there and I pay for it anyway - why not make it so that I can really take advantage of it?
The Lytro looks very interesting...can you show us some of your photos on PAD? Or a link to Flickr?
In fact, if you care to take the time and read this thread again, nobody's saying to use the P mode. The idea on the table is to have it made smarter in some way so it *can* be used. Big difference.
Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.
While there is no argument that autofocus is great .. and auto exposure etc is great. but I find the most challenging subjects need Manual everything .. this I found when I challenged myself to take a photo of a Dragonfly in flight. Slowly one by one all the auto setting had to be turned to manual before I got my photo. First went Auto ISO into fixed ISO. Them P/S/A into M then went auto-focus into manual focus and TTL Flash into manual flash and finally auto white balance needed to be turned off. Really, manual everything is still the best way to go. But i confess I am lazy and I am mostly on Auto everything and P Mode! :-) (using the PMode command dial and +/- exposure compensation to tweak the settings.)
Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.
But I also have to admit that I am simply not used to P and S mode. My last camera before I got my current digital one was an FM3a
And then again, If one can get the desired results without a P mode, where is the need for a P mode then?
Call me a dinosaur if you will, but I don´t get your reasoning on the matter at all.
Can photography technology automatically mimic artistic vision?
I think the Lytro is neat because at some point, product designers sat down and said, "ok, this photography thing - let's go at it differently," and something new was born.
When I started seriously pursuing photography three years ago, there was no in-camera HDR. I think ubiquitous panoramic modes in smart phone cameras (certainly in cell phones) were relatively new. Time lapse as a video sub-function? Didn't really exist (although interval shooting did).
There have been innovations like these that dumb down a lot of what we do as photographers because ultimately technology acts as a barrier between us and our artistic vision. Photography becomes easier as technology becomes intuitive and less distracting.
So, how does P mode - or fully automatic shooting - become better? I think the answer lies in helping photographers be better artists.
I think this goal could be achieved in a few ways technically, although the technological overhead is not quite in reach today. If you stop thinking of a DSLR as a photographer's tool, and instead as an optical sensor for a powerful networked computer and associated image database, then a 'smarter P mode' is limited only by data pipeline between the sensor and the network.
Example:
A photographer aims in the general direction of a scene they want to capture. The scene consists of a human subject standing on a bridge in front of a waterfall and a blue sky with clouds overhead. They press the shutter button and...
1) a lower-res version of the image and associated GPS data is sent wirelessly to a could based, multi server, super powerful networked computer
2) the computer starts an image recognition algorithm
3) it identifies the human subject (easy, this has been around for years), the bridge structure, the waterfall, the clouds and the sky, some miscellaneous flora
4) it uses the gps data to acquire sun location, direction, nearest golden hour and a local weather forecast
5) it runs the image against its database and comes up with a 95% match for other images taken in the area. It takes vote ups, likes, etc. from social media for these photos and compiles a top five shot list for that location
6) it sends actionable data to the camera in the fraction of seconds the computer work required
7) the camera takes five shots, selectively focusing on areas and subjects in the scene, using different apertures, exposures, etc. to yield various 'artistic' results
8) the camera displays thumbnails on the back of the camera and an optional page of shot list suggestions for the area, including suggested times for the shoot to maximize lighting, for the photographer to review.
To me, that's a smarter P mode. When all is said and done, I could ignore everything the camera tells me, put the camera in M or A as I, along with most people who spend thousands on gear and visit this site every day, do, and start shooting.
Most of these things I accomplish today with my phone and various apps... but the camera can always be smarter, more helpful, less obtrusive.
... And no time to use them.
there are many automations and tools built into cameras, metering, focus, scene detection, many of which are useful for certain situations, but the cameras ability to chose aperture by itself is never useful, and imo should never be allowed.
"should the subject be isolated or not? and if so how much"? are not questions that any camera can answer.
P can only be used if you dont care what is in focus and what is not .... but whyyyyyy would any photographer not care about this?
a smarter A mode? great, lets have it. but a P mode? is crazy talk
** just thought id add that the difference between A and P is really very slight, but crucial imo **
It wont be perfect and it will not work in every instance. There is still a reason to have a photographer behind the camera to make the final choice. But it can be made a lot smarter.
Let's look at the following example...
Right now:
- Camera detects a certain amount of light hitting it's sensors.
- Based on that amount of light and the chosen ISO (we're not using auto iso) the camera pics a exposure/shutter speed value
- The photographer is presented with the suggestion of f5.6 and 1/200 and can adjust these settings as he sees fit.
A smarter P mode:
- Camera detects a certain amount of light hitting it's sensor
- Color RGB matrix (the 91000 pixels color sensitive sensor that's already inside your camera and is used by the scene recognition algorithms to determine correct exposure) detect blue and some white in the upper part of the image. The lower part is mostly shades of green and browns with no skin color detected.
- The lens tells the camera that it's at 24mm (this is once again functionality that's already there)
- The focus sensors tell the camera that the furthers distance under the focus sensors is multiple kilometers away. The closest focus sensors point at objects 10 meters away.
(I think this is already be technically possible with the build in phase detection portion of the auto focus module, combines with a CPU lens)
- The photographer has focused on a point 100 meters (determined by the AF modules in conjunction with the lens CPU) away which had no features to set it apart from the rest of the landscape (91k RGB sensor)
- The camera AI determines that you're probably photographing a landscape and so assumes that you probably want to have everything sharp.
- Taking into account the risk of motion blur, diffraction properties of the lens, focal length, focus distance,... the camera suggests a starting position of f11 at 1/125.
- The photographers is presented with this suggestion and is once again free to alter it according to his judgement with a simple scroll of the scroll wheel.
So you see. A camera is theoretically perfectly capable of choosing a correct aperture.
If I can figure it out then so can a sufficiently advanced computer program.
And because we have to rely on guessing distances (when using hyperfocal tables for example), whereas the camera can take exact measurements, I would even suggest that I can do a better job then we can.
I'm not advocating a P mode without the option to override it. We have that override now and I see no reason to relinquish that control.
In my example I might prefer an out of focus foreground so I just turn my scroll wheel until I'm at f6 (for example) or I might want to make absolutely sure that everything is in focus and close further down to f16.
The option is still there, we still have full control, we still determine the aperture/shutter speed combination.
It's just that we start of with a better starting point.
I've taken landscape photo's for years now. I know which apertures give me what effect at which effective focal length (and at what sensor size). I know about hyperfocal distance. I know about diffraction. I know which aperture gives me optimal sharpness for my different lenses.
I can figure it all out myself.
But when I'm suddenly confronted with a beautiful scene that will only last a second or two longer I have to take a quick decision. At that time it would be lovely if a very advanced system could offer me a good, reliable suggestion. I still have the choice to accept, alter or completely ignore it.
If I put my camera in aperture mode:
- I start at my previously set aperture.
- I scroll until I get f8
- The camera will give me a shutter speed of X.
- I take the picture
If I put my camera in P mode:
- I start at an aperture chosen by the camera
- I scroll until I get f8
- The camera will give me a shutter speed of X.
- I take the picture
The difference in the end result? Non.
So, what is our difference?
The starting point. (ok, there are some other subtle nuances but I'm trying to make a general point; not trying to suggest that P mode should become the default shooting mode
When you are going to take a lot of similar images you might want a fixed starting point.
For example:
When I'm doing a natural light outdoor model shoot I set my aperture to what I depth of field I want and mostly leave it there for the entire shoot. The camera adjusts the shutter speed accordingly and I'm fine.
But when I'm taking a portrait shot one second, a landscape shot the next and then follow up with a close up of a statue only to step back and zoom out and take a picture of the entire building I will need a different aperture each and every time (and of course a different shutter speed as well). If I were in A mode that would result in a lot of scrolling and a lot of educated guessing. If I were in the smarter/better P mode I would start of with an aperture/shutter speed choice that is correct in 90% of all cases and can work from there.
So what would be the two advantages for a good photographer?
- Less work/less scrolling so quicker reaction time. (If you're camera was at f2.8 and you suddenly need f16 it will take you a lot of time compared to the camera already putting the aperture somewhere around f16)
- An additional confirmation of your educated guess.
(e.g.: You see a landscape and think f8. The camera suggests the same. So, you are probably correct. Or you see a landscape and think f22. The camera suggests f16. You notice the difference and take the time to evaluate the scene in front of you. Do you really need the f22? Or is the camera pointing out an error in your estimate? The choice is ultimately still yours.)
Anyway, I just want to provide an alternate view on the subject.
A lot of photographers are perfectly happy with the A, S en M modes and seem very opposed to using a P mode.
I'm suggesting that a smarter/better P mode can have some added value in some cases (I would guess mostly walk around photography with lots of different types of subjects) whereas now it's rarely used.
no camera can decide on whether or not a subject should be isolated, so P should not be used. unless you do not care, or are expecting to get lucky
For many shots, P will give a very good image. But, for almost every pro I know, we like to set the aperture, shutter speed, ISO, etc., and produce an image we believe will be the result of these settings. I truly think "P" mode is primarily for those who want to make their DSLR into a point and shoot.
excluding a lanscape, where i would argue something around f8 is preferable
P will give good images, but maybe not what you wanted. you can give your camera to a blind man, and he might take a good image too ....
Being a photographer is a lot like being a Christian: Some people look at you funny but do not see the amazing beauty all around them - heartyfisher.
there are times when allowing the camera to choose the shutter is fine (use A), and there are times when its not ok to to let the camera chose the shutter (use M).
there are no times when its ok for the camera to decide what should and what shouldnt be in focus, because that is a subjective question with no correct answer
there are times, such as being in a dark room, where light constraints dictate the aperture ..... we dont always have the luxury of choosing a pinhole aperture ....
im not saying P cant take good pictures
i duno, i feel like im repeating myself, so i wont say anymore about it. its just my opinion, ymmv
The current "P" and "A" modes aren't really all that different. They use the same exposure program. The question of creative result is really a personal choice. Sometimes in A mode you will want to change the aperture to match your creative vision, and you will need to rotate the scroll wheel several clicks to get there. Or perhaps you want to dial exposure comp up or down. In P mode this is no different, and as a matter of fact the setting you are looking for creatively may only be a few clicks away on the scroll wheel. Sometimes it may be less clicks to get there, sometimes more, but the same setting is in there.
When looking for a parking space, do you start on the right side of the lot or the left? Eventually you find the spot you want, but you just take a different path to get there. Don't hate the "P"!
Now a smarter P could be cool, even something like this: You limit a range of aperture like say from f/8 to f/11 and let the program set the rest, also within limits. You could apply the same logic to shutter speed. Then your decision is really to just scroll between the 3 f-stops that you have Programmed as your preferred ones for this shoot, or even shoot a bracket so you can decide later... I like the idea of this thread, kinda gets the creative juices flowing, now let's take some pictures.
The two green reset dots are very important on my NIKON camera's. These buttons set it on auto ISO (among other standards I want), after that I turn the camera to P. This is always my last action when I put the camera in the bag. When I want to make a quick picture, right out the bag, I don't have to think and check my camera. Shoot, complain later, but I have the picture. Now you can use the U1 and the U2 button for that too.
Normally I never use the P mode.
I could argue that autofocus is LAZY, or that using a built-in light meter is too, but we all seem to have adopted these technological innovations