D800 compared to Medium Format Digital Backs

WestEndBoy

comparing an 80mp back to a d800 is legitimate, but only if you are printing huge - and few people are doing this, so who else cares?

you guys are talking about "trillions of colors"? ... what printer can print that? what monitor can display that? and whose eyes can tell the difference?

most images are used online and saved as jpegs which yield 16 million colors, can tiffs cope with more than that? can our eyes discern the difference? i dont think so. call me a philistine but im sure im happy with 16 million colors, and maybe even a lot less than that

these days you get amazing images from any dslr camera - and there are far more important aspects to a picture than how many X billion colors it might or might not have, or contrast or anything else

hassleblad's website : http://www.hasselblad.co.uk/showcase.aspx

can anyone say these images are not repeatable with a d800?

medium format is a business that will survive only so long as clients are willing to pay for the premium $ and swallow the marketing spiel of "high end" photographers

The vast majority of humanity would question why we need to move from a D3XXX to a D800 as they could not tell the difference (and in many situations, I would not be able to).

There is always the argument that I can't tell the difference so it is not an important difference. But there is always a small group that can, cares and will spend the money. This market will always be catered to, even at extreme cost (MF) and those with less will always aspire to it and suppliers (Canikon) will continue to get better until those with less can buy it.

And then there will come a time when sensors of any reasonable size are dirt cheap and someone will enter the MF format with DSLRs. That is when the market will get interesting.

Ironheart

Ultimately then, I can own a D800 and a D7100 and have the advantages of both without having to invest in and maintain an entirely different ecosphere of stuff.

+1, Amen
And you effectively double your lens collection due to the focal length multiplier.

And I can double my lens collection by switching my D800 to DX mode.

Yeah, and get a measly 16million pixels on subject. That's why god invented 24mp DX, suck it up and go DX man, don't knock it 'till ya try it :-)

WestEndBoy

Ultimately then, I can own a D800 and a D7100 and have the advantages of both without having to invest in and maintain an entirely different ecosphere of stuff.

+1, Amen
And you effectively double your lens collection due to the focal length multiplier.

And I can double my lens collection by switching my D800 to DX mode.

Yeah, and get a measly 16million pixels on subject. That's why god invented 24mp DX, suck it up and go DX man, don't knock it 'till ya try it :-)

Ironheart, you are funny and I gave you a +1. OK, let me give this a try...........

It is a valid point. But I think I will just buy the lenses that will do the job on my D800 with 36 million megapixels of bitching dynamic range and low light performance on subject.

SquamishPhoto

It is a valid point. But I think I will just buy the lenses that will do the job on my D800 with 36 million megapixels of bitching dynamic range and low light performance on subject.

The file size on your D800 must be huge! 36 million megapixels is unheard of! Factory one-off? ;P

WestEndBoy

It is a valid point. But I think I will just buy the lenses that will do the job on my D800 with 36 million megapixels of bitching dynamic range and low light performance on subject.

The file size on your D800 must be huge! 36 million megapixels is unheard of! Factory one-off? ;P

Touche! I would probably have sharp images of individual skin cells....hmmm........I wonder if your 200mm F2's resolution could exploit that?

ChasCS

Technically speaking, a megapixel is like 1,048,576 pixels

So you have one big motha!! ;-)

Chas

itsnotmeyouknow

@DenverShooter

Yup. In fact shooting a Hasselblad and the "long" lens of 250mm was like shooting 160mm on a full frame 35mm camera…..and I do not know of anything longer for medium format.

The words "cubic bucks" also refers to winners in motorsports…..LOL

I'm sorry, Ms Moto, you need to look a little harder. I have 400mm f/5.6 for the Pentax 645D, and there is a 300mm f/4 also, which is insanely sharp.

I have the D800 and D800E, and they are fantastic cameras, for sure.

I started printing A3+ sizes of the same scene processed in pretty much the same way with the D800E and Pentax 645D at similar FOV. The Pentax shots just looked better. The colour definition was better, and the feel of it was better. There is too much comparison done on a pixel basis on computer screens rather than on prints.

There are rumours of a 50mp Pentax 645D coming this spring, this time based on a CMOS sensor rather than the present CCD, and it is rumoured to have Live View and Video too. I will be seriously tempted if I happen to be in Japan or the US to get it at a sensible price - in the UK, we pay the same in £ as you do in dollars. Rumours are that it will retail at the same price as the original - $10k.

The Pentax system is pretty flexible too:

I have:

25 f/4
33 - 55 f/4.5
35 f/3.5
45 - 85 f/4.5
55 f/2.8
75 f/2.8
55 - 110 f/4.5
80 - 160 f/4.5
120 f/4 macro
200 f/4
300 f/5.6
400 f/5.6

plus 1.4 x and 2 x extenders.

Msmoto

@itsnotmeyouknow

Adorama and B & H are not listing Pentax telephotos for medium format, thus I assumed these were not available. What are the actual specs/name/manufacturer on your 300 and 400mm for the 645D?

itsnotmeyouknow

@itsnotmeyouknow

Adorama and B & H are not listing Pentax telephotos for medium format, thus I assumed these were not available. What are the actual specs/name/manufacturer on your 300 and 400mm for the 645D?

Pentax themselves. There is also an ultra wide angle zoom being prepared and a new 90mm macro also that has been released fairly recently. I'm wishing the new model was out now as am in Tokyo next week.

DenverShooter

I just took a look at the Ricoh-Pentax 645D webpage and it only shows three lenses (25mm, 55mm & 90mm).

http://www.us.ricoh-imaging.com/dslr/645D_Black

Did I miss something?

Denver Shooter

itsnotmeyouknow

It's just showing the SDM AW range. The lenses I have listed above are still available.

Ade

Current 645 lens lineup, including the 400mm FA:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/products/lens/index645_list.html

DenverShooter

Interesting that they are not listed on the Pentax US site or listed for sale at B & H or Adorama.

Denver Shooter

TaoTeJared

@TTJ, when you say 36bit I assume you mean 12bits per color channel. When we talk about 12, 14, or 16 bits in camera or RAW format, we mean per color as well, so a 14bit NEF would be 42bits in this same parlance. The difference in color between 14 (42) bit and 16 (48) bit is 4 trillion possible colors vs 281 trillion. Which means a 16bit (medium format) raw color space has more shades of blue than a 14bit (FX or DX) has colors. Which I why I agree that color depth is way more important that megapixels. I am constantly frustrated by flower colors "in the wild" vs what I can actually reproduce on screen or in print. Fucia and purple being the most frustrating. It almost makes me want to go back to black and white :-)

As a comparison HDTV only displays 8 (24) bit color or 16 million measly colors (your computer monitor might do 10)

Incorrect assumption. I do mean 36bit per color. We are talking the future.

Sigma's Foveon sensor grabs color that is very accurate. I have always been impressed with it's color at native isos.
I have ran across some articles with some shops (college & company) that are playing with Foveon type sensors as well as 4 color and even saw a 6 color (RGB&CYM) sensors. I could see the day where tech gets so advanced that we start seeing primary and secondary colors on a sensor. I would think A 72-80mp sensor could still yield a 20-36mp image. That would need a hell of a processor though.

Msmoto

Re: The Pentax/Ricoh lenses…. available from Japan I guess, and the price of $2800 for a 400mm… not too bad. And, apparently a 2x teleconverter is possible…but does it still have the body AF on an 800mm f/11?

So, I stand corrected about the equipment possibility with medium format….

Ade

Incorrect assumption. I do mean 36bit per color. We are talking the future.

36 bits per color means a 108-bit RGB system (13.5 bytes per pixel).

Such a system might represent 324 nonillion colors... (324 thousand billion billion colors). Not practical any time soon, and I suspect, wholly unnecessary.

SquamishPhoto

lol, Ade. I was going to point out the same thing. Practicality and necessity are hardly priorities when you're trying to sound smart. ;]

WestEndBoy

Don't you mean sextillion? Or are you using that quaint European counting system? But then that would be Octillian. Oh wait, that is something else on that European system...........

Ade

It's 10^32... (324 x 10^30). 10^30 is Nonillion in the US/Canada/UK (short scale), larger than Sextillion (10^21). In continental Europe, 10^30 is Quintillion (long scale).

I wonder if the Nikon D 10^32 will be medium format or still FX?

In other news, Ben Von Wong traded in his D800 and the Hasselblad for a... point&shoot?

WestEndBoy

It will be "SuperFX".

itsnotmeyouknow

Re: The Pentax/Ricoh lenses…. available from Japan I guess, and the price of $2800 for a 400mm… not too bad. And, apparently a 2x teleconverter is possible…but does it still have the body AF on an 800mm f/11?

So, I stand corrected about the equipment possibility with medium format….

It does make the lens and body manual focus. With the new body likely to have live view though, and the fact that the OVF of the current 645D being huge and bright, manual focussing is pretty easy.

Msmoto

@Ade

Great video….so often things do not go as planned on a photo shoot….

DenverShooter

Re: The Pentax/Ricoh lenses…. available from Japan I guess, and the price of $2800 for a 400mm… not too bad. And, apparently a 2x teleconverter is possible…but does it still have the body AF on an 800mm f/11?

So, I stand corrected about the equipment possibility with medium format….

So if you are going to make a MF 800mm by 2 X tele converting a MF 400mm you probably need to stop down a couple of stops to sharpen so figure you need to run F/22. And there is the ISO 1600 limit on the 645D and you are now out of photons for stop action if what you are shooting is going 135 MPH (which I usually shoot at 1/1600 or 1/2000)..

And thats without the two stop loss if you need to use a polarizer..

Not a snowballs chance in hell of getting AF lock at F/11 with a high speed object..

So yes it is possible to create a medium format 800 mm lens by tele converting a MF 400mm lens, but its not really very practical.

Denver Shooter

Msmoto

@DenverShooter

Agree….. for those of us who have shot high speed objects, or want to capture "incidents" within this context, there is no medium format which is even close to usable.

Ade

The new Pentax 645z medium format is looking good spec- and price-wise. From our sister site:

http://photorumors.com/2014/04/12/pentax-645z-detailed-specifications/

51.4 megapixels
43.8 x 32.8 mm CMOS sensor
No AA filter
ISO 100-204,800
3.2" Tilt LCD w/ Live View
Full HD video, plus 4K in "interval mode"
Interchangeable focusing screens
Focus peaking in MF mode
Dual SD UHS-1

Only $8,500. Announcement Monday.

Some downsides:

FP shutter (same as regular DSLRs)
1/125 sync speed
1/4000 max shutter speed
1 fps RAW (3 fps JPEG-L)