Nikon Retro F-Mount Camera (FM2 Style)

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  • moreorlessmoreorless Posts: 120Member
    A "hybrid EVF / OVF" doesn't seem necessary for "old style shooting". - See more at: http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/1742/nikon-retro-f-mount-camera-fm2-style#Item_118
    "Old style" shooting with a manual lens would have been done using a focusing screen though rather than Nikon's off frame rangefinder or Canon's "blinks". Including some kind of EVF could allow for such features without having to always have them active in the viewfinder.
    THEN he sets the f stop by rotating the lens f-stop ring and you hear two clicks - See more at: http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/1742/nikon-retro-f-mount-camera-fm2-style#Item_118
    This is an interesting issue I'd say, while Nikon obviously still make a lot of lenses with an aperture ring none of the new designs besides the PC-E lenses do. That to me would make building a camera that specifically needed an aperture ring on the lens to operate a questionable move.

    One alternative besides having the regular front and/or back dials could I spose be to take the old S rangefinder route and have an aperture dial on the mount of the camera.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,493Member

    what we want is mirco 4/3rds size, but with dslr quality, versatility and performance ..... isnt it ?
    Who is this "we"? That's a broad generalization. I have no interest in such a camera. This Nikon (now rumored to be called Nikon DF) is far more interesting.

    I had a mirrorless camera for a year, I thought wow it's smaller and lighter I'll use it more. Nope. I still took my DSLR 99% of the time, even thought it was heavier. The DSLR was simply easier to use without menu diving, and the battery life on mirrorless cameras is terrible.
    I bit broad yes, but that is what a very large market does want. All you have to do is look to see how many people are clammering over any mirrorless system. The amount of web blogs/sites basically dedicated to these systems has exploded in the last few years. And for those that don't, you have the rest of the line-up.
    If that is true, which I doubt, then why have mirrorless sales, in the last year, plummeted at a higher percentage than DSLRs? I hear people talking and blogging a lot about mirrorless, saying how popular it is, but there is no substance or facts to backup the "mirrorless revolution" people are preaching.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member

    "Old style" shooting with a manual lens would have been done using a focusing screen though rather than Nikon's off frame rangefinder or Canon's "blinks". Including some kind of EVF could allow for such features without having to always have them active in the viewfinder.
    Hmm that's a good point, a hybrid system could be used to present a "digital split screen", for example, a la the new Fuji cameras, which could be turned off.

    It could also be useful for a mirror-up mode to enable super-quiet shooting.
  • moreorlessmoreorless Posts: 120Member
    If that is true, which I doubt, then why have mirrorless sales, in the last year, plummeted at a higher percentage than DSLRs? I hear people talking and blogging a lot about mirrorless, saying how popular it is, but there is no substance or facts to backup the "mirrorless revolution" people are preaching. - See more at: http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/1742/nikon-retro-f-mount-camera-fm2-style#Item_129
    The issue I'v always had with this kind of thinking is that photography is very different from a lot of area's of tech. When you look at computers for example I think its clear that most of the profit comes from casual laymen as most people are prepared to spend a decent amount. The layman is always going to be easy to target with a smaller/newer/hipper product even if it doesn't offer quite as much functionality. That's why laptops and now tablets have grown to take in so much of the market even though many more specialist users preffer the older block style PC.

    Photography though is IMHO very different, the layman doesn't value it a lot as its just one of many features on his/her new phone or a very cheap compact. The serious money in photography has always come from the more specialist users, even someone who buys an entry level ASPC DSLR for example likely has a pretty strong interest. This I'd say makes the smaller/newer/hipper product a tougher sell as more of the profit comes from users who value functionality.

    When you move up to the FF market I think this becomes even more true, compared to most tech your looking at a very small userbase who value functionality very highly. A big market for a FF mirrorless system is thus far unproven which means Sony are taking a very big risk switching focus from the A mount to the FE mount. If Nikon can target the smaller camera market and also the "retro control" market with an existing lens system its far less of a risk for them and far less distracting from their existing business.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,487Moderator
    Well, reading the above it looks like they are doing it right by simply sucking people in with the old 'aspirational' marketing ploy.
    Always learning.
  • autofocusautofocus Posts: 625Member
    I'm so tired of the whining that goes on here now days. Everybody keeps buying a camera brand they hate. I love my Nikon equipment. If I don't like a specific piece, I don't buy it. I don't come on here and slam every new item that comes out when I know it's not something I will buy anyway. Think I'll keep buying and shooting Nikon but start reading the canon forum for a while. I want to see if they hate their brand as much as this crowd does. Sheeeesh......
  • BesoBeso Posts: 464Member
    Maybe that's where the hybrid concept comes in. Last generation styling combined with next-generation pricing.
    Hilarious!
    Occasionally a decent image ...
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    ...If that is true, which I doubt, then why have mirrorless sales, in the last year, plummeted at a higher percentage than DSLRs? ...
    I have not see numbers like that at all - quite the opposite actually. Would be interested in reading any articles on such. Camera sales numbers by various entities gets interesting (as a former analyst) and how various sources, timeframes, and data is combined to illustrate "something." Sometimes what the original creator of the data intended it for, it get's used for something that it was not intended for, and not appropriate for.
    Not saying that is the case - I just have a nerd love for that type of thing.
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,398Moderator
    I am of the impression this whole 'retro' thing is bizarre......but, I have not had one in hand, so I may find I love it.....

    Oh well...
    Msmoto, mod
  • moreorlessmoreorless Posts: 120Member
    Well, reading the above it looks like they are doing it right by simply sucking people in with the old 'aspirational' marketing ploy. - See more at: http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/1742/nikon-retro-f-mount-camera-fm2-style#Item_129
    I wouldn't disagree there, people who value functionality can be persuaded to overbuy. I think aspirational marketing with camera's is still a much easier route than selling new/hip/small tech dispite the latter generating more talk/blogs on the net.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,493Member
    ...If that is true, which I doubt, then why have mirrorless sales, in the last year, plummeted at a higher percentage than DSLRs? ...
    I have not see numbers like that at all - quite the opposite actually. Would be interested in reading any articles on such. Camera sales numbers by various entities gets interesting (as a former analyst) and how various sources, timeframes, and data is combined to illustrate "something." Sometimes what the original creator of the data intended it for, it get's used for something that it was not intended for, and not appropriate for.
    Not saying that is the case - I just have a nerd love for that type of thing.
    Thom Hogan wrote about it on his site that focuses on mirrorless cameras earlier this year. The numbers were from CIPA.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,487Moderator
    Well, reading the above it looks like they are doing it right by simply sucking people in with the old 'aspirational' marketing ploy. - See more at: http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/1742/nikon-retro-f-mount-camera-fm2-style#Item_129
    I wouldn't disagree there, people who value functionality can be persuaded to overbuy. I think aspirational marketing with camera's is still a much easier route than selling new/hip/small tech dispite the latter generating more talk/blogs on the net.
    I was particularly thinking of those poor souls who are distracted by their own personal aesthetic image, measure themselves by it and will always be thinking of how such a piece of jewelry will improve said image. Put simply, compare complex plastic looking big black camera around the neck to smaller glittery classic looking camera in an open leather case. Just the sort of thing carried by 'The Beckhams' et al...
    Always learning.
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    Thom Hogan wrote about it on his site that focuses on mirrorless cameras earlier this year. The numbers were from CIPA.
    Been looking at the CIPA numbers - US month over PY month sales are up, but overall sales down. Japan is way up but the rest of the world is down as well. Month over month sales are on a continual rise - which makes since as many models have been released. I'm willing to bet most of it will be caught up by the end of the year as the bulk of electronic sales come at christmas. YTD over YTD sales are much lower (are down 13-18% ), but I think that is more due to where new releases land.

    Looking back at what Thom would have had, at that time they were much lower, but that was before this years releases. Fuji has 3-5 that lands in that category, Nikon 3, Sony 2, Oly 1 or two, Pentax 1, Pani 1 and I think that is it but I may have missed a couple. All of those have been released in the last 6 months which would have been after Thom's numbers. Not to say Thom was wrong at the time, just that his article is "time prudent" and is correct as of the time it was written. Things change quickly. ;)

    That's the thing about camera companies - you almost have to look at 2-4 year sales to get a good picture. Nikon and Canon are almost opposite year for consumer DSLRs so if you look at the historic averages, Canon has huge sales one year and kills Nikon (who released nothing) and everyone asks why Nikon sucks. Then the next year Nikon pumps out a ton of camera's and Canon has none. Everyone asks why Canon sucks. Mirrorless systems (Oly, Pani, Sony) started pumping out stuff every year, then they finally are starting to taper that off as they have found what products sell (for the most part.) It seems they are near a 18mth refresh at the moment for most systems. Panasonic has really paused and has started doing a 2 year cycle like DSLRs.
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • TaoTeJaredTaoTeJared Posts: 1,306Member
    edited October 2013
    I am of the impression this whole 'retro' thing is bizarre......but, I have not had one in hand, so I may find I love it.....

    Oh well...
    That's because you are the original Retro Msmoto!
    I was particularly thinking of those poor souls who are distracted by their own personal aesthetic image, measure themselves by it and will always be thinking of how such a piece of jewelry will improve said image. Put simply, compare complex plastic looking big black camera around the neck to smaller glittery classic looking camera in an open leather case. Just the sort of thing carried by 'The Beckhams' et al...
    @spraynpray you are in the Nikon forum not the Leica one ;))
    Post edited by TaoTeJared on
    D800, D300, D50(ir converted), FujiX100, Canon G11, Olympus TG2. Nikon lenses - 24mm 2.8, 35mm 1.8, (5 in all)50mm, 60mm, 85mm 1.8, 105vr, 105 f2.5, 180mm 2.8, 70-200vr1, 24-120vr f4. Tokina 12-24mm, 16-28mm, 28-70mm (angenieux design), 300mm f2.8. Sigma 15mm fisheye. Voigtlander R2 (olive) & R2a, Voigt 35mm 2.5, Zeiss 50mm f/2, Leica 90mm f/4. I know I missed something...
  • kenadamskenadams Posts: 222Member
    Spraynpray, just take a look at the new images on the main blog. A guy sitting in front of a fire at night, with his Defender parked in the back. Everything here screams retro. Now the fun thing is, you could just as easily imagine that same image with a brand new Chevy truck in the back, and it would present the guy in a completely different light.
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    I'm so tired of the whining that goes on here now days. Everybody keeps buying a camera brand they hate. I love my Nikon equipment. If I don't like a specific piece, I don't buy it. I don't come on here and slam every new item that comes out when I know it's not something I will buy anyway. Think I'll keep buying and shooting Nikon but start reading the canon forum for a while. I want to see if they hate their brand as much as this crowd does. Sheeeesh......
    Hi all,

    @autofocus - Some of us are just pissed about the D600. Period. That's going to burn for a while.

    Although I'm whole on it, it took a bit. I ragged to make sure others weren't sucked into a black hole. Not everyone was made as whole as I.

    To everyone.

    The only way to ensure quality is high to not let up standards. Ever.

    Furthermore, if you buy shit. All you will ever have is shit.

    Early adopters need fall into traps thinking that gear will be backed by return policies and they can weather the consequences; I've been there and done that and, personally, don't think it is ever worth it.

    I like my Nikon gear - but the company needs to listen to its complete base; and that I'm not so sure it's doing, or is capable of doing. Like many of you, my toolkit is completely Nikon-centric, and it would be very, very expensive to convert to any other brand.

    My best,

    Mike
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited October 2013
    MikeGunter Some of us are just pissed about the D600. Period.

    several years I bought a car, it went wrong and the dealer wriggled out of the warranty using the small print

    (you know the one, about water ingress)

    I sold the car and will never buy that brand of car again. Period

    but I don't spent my life trolling forums telling people my option of a certain brand of car
    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • MikeGunterMikeGunter Posts: 543Member
    Hi all,

    @sevencrossing

    Hopefully, you did at least warn some folks about the auto in question - assuming it was a systemic problem - unless it was a lemon - and then unlikely not to the people you sold it to.

    A lot of good has come from highlighting the D600's problems, namely the D610.

    My share of that I'll take.

    My best,

    Mike
  • haroldpharoldp Posts: 984Member
    At the price of a D800 ? I wish Nikon luck with this one.

    ... H
    D810, D3x, 14-24/2.8, 50/1.4D, 24-70/2.8, 24-120/4 VR, 70-200/2.8 VR1, 80-400 G, 200-400/4 VR1, 400/2.8 ED VR G, 105/2 DC, 17-55/2.8.
    Nikon N90s, F100, F, lots of Leica M digital and film stuff.

  • PhotobugPhotobug Posts: 5,751Member
    Shawnino said:
    Oh what the heck, it's Wednesday afternoon, I'll be a bomb-thrower: I actually do believe anybody who picks this up at $3K in lieu of a D800 is either
    --doing an awful lot of work in low-light or high fps conditions
    or
    --a complete moron.

    Kenadams said:

    Oh, and the price point, if it comes to it, is outerwordly. Ridiculous.

    Guys, totally agree. I was interested in looking at DF until I saw the price. It's actually more than the D800. I'll second Shawnion and Kenadams...why would you buy the DF unless your a "gear" collector.

    Sure it would be nice to own the DF but when funds are tight I am going to buy the better camera....right now that is the D800. Even after 3 months it's only going to drop $100 to $150, making the D800 the better buy.
    D750 & D7100 | 24-70 F2.8 G AF-S ED, 70-200 F2.8 AF VR, TC-14E III, TC-1.7EII, 35 F2 AF D, 50mm F1.8G, 105mm G AF-S VR | Backup & Wife's Gear: D5500 & Sony HX50V | 18-140 AF-S ED VR DX, 55-300 AF-S G VR DX |
    |SB-800, Amaran Halo LED Ring light | MB-D16 grip| Gitzo GT3541 + RRS BH-55LR, Gitzo GM2942 + Sirui L-10 | RRS gear | Lowepro, ThinkTank, & Hoodman gear | BosStrap | Vello Freewave Plus wireless Remote, Leica Lens Cleaning Cloth |
  • shawninoshawnino Posts: 453Member
    Main blog now tipping under $2K. If under $2K could cannibalize D610 sales BUT I think it would be massive for Nikon. Even if it winds up being the aspirational body that actually sells lots of V2 and D7100, it could be huge.
  • MsmotoMsmoto Posts: 5,398Moderator
    @shawnino

    The price of the new retro will be under $2K...is this what you said? I could not find that information. I think it will be about $3K.

    And, once we actually see the camera, in hand, I might even find I like it. The primary concern I would have is how the controls function in my hands. If they feel like my old "F" bodies...mmmm... might be attractive.
    Msmoto, mod
  • shawninoshawnino Posts: 453Member
    @msmoto: The posts on the main blog get about 500 comments each, but here's what I think I gleaned from Peter's posts/replies:

    --The "D4H specs" (including the $3K price tag) posted a couple days back are completely fake
    --The price is now thought to be $2K, lens-in. @Framer's contact said roughly same.
    --Name "DF" (Digital Fusion)
    --39 AF points, likely same setup as D610 (D600). Other D610-type specs too (fps etc.) with the exception being a 16MP sensor. Logically that's the D4 sensor but that is still an assumption.
    --Biggest point of confusion appears to be what is "hybrid" about the camera... could mean anything.
    --Teaser ad posted. Much debate as to what the clicking noise is.
    --Kit lens 50 f/1.8 that somehow both looks retro but is thought to be a G-Type lens. (*shrug*)

    I have no info of my own. I did mutter a couple pages back in this thread that $3K was crazy as a soup sandwich, so I wanted to re-post the latest indication of a lower price. I think this camera is a stone-cold loser priced above D800/E, but a great move for Nikon below $2K. I wish Nikon only success.
  • moreorlessmoreorless Posts: 120Member
    I find it hard to judge size well, do people think that silver ring is part of the lens or is it the lens mount? If it were the latter that perhaps the area behind it is an aperture control ring built into the camera?

  • AdeAde Posts: 1,071Member
    To me it looks like the ring is part of the lens. It would be difficult to make a protruding part of the mount which can perfectly accommodate different lenses. (Due to the need to keep the mount-flange to sensor distance the same as existing F-mount cameras.) You either have to shift all the mechanism forward, or you have to make the protrusion hollow. Problematic either way.

    An aperture control ring on the lens is still not completely out of the question (even though it's a "G" type lens) -- e.g., perhaps it has an electronic control ring instead of a mechanical one a la non-G lenses today. This seems rather doubtful, however, but possible.
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