Wondering Wheather The inevitable Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless Will Be An F Mount.

heartyfisher

If new Nikon lenses for mirrorless, also came on an adapter that can be removed so they can be mounted on an F mount, that would be a coup and go a long way for customer loyalty.

... H

Thats a weird requirement ? like wanting to mount my nikon1 lense onto my DSLR? Dont see it happening..

the adapter will need lense elements a bit like a TC to extend the light rays across the space that is the mirrorbox .. seem like some really complex optics, if its possible at all, without the lense elements crashing into the "TC".

Thinking a bit more about it its probably possible but it will have to have several elements and will likely cost as much as a TC.

FrenchRiviera

I think Nikon gives apparence to be sleeping , despite the great quality of their latest materials , but when you keep an eye on competitors ( as we say , one that does not lead walks back )

http://www.43rumors.com/how-to-create-a-40-megapixel-photo-by-8-frames-with-sensor-shift-and-processing/
http://petapixel.com/2014/11/24/reports-confirm-sonys-a7iis-5-axis-stabilization-works-with-all-3rd-party-glass/
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/samsung-nx1

promise of HD , great colors and no moire from Olympus , very efficient in camera stabilization from Sony , great hybrid AF on sensor by Samsung ...
Still no electronic shutter , which could help to get rid of X-synchro ( for outdoor studio flash ) .

There is things that could be done and for the time being , I only see new FF DSLR ( great fortunately ) by so conservative :-/

MikeGunter

Hi all,

In the M4/3s and most other mirrorless systems, the adapters do not need lens elements to work.

They do however eliminate automatic coupling of shutter, aperture, metering, and a other 'automatic focusing' and convenience features.

F-mount lenses are more than a bayonet mount. By that I mean, do you add autofocus, SWF, or which of the types of F-mount(s) among the many?

While I have a 35-year-old lens on my D750 now, if the best camera Nikon can make in the mirrorless market for FX will not fit the F-mount, then maybe design should follow function.

My best,

Mike

haroldp

Thats a weird requirement ? like wanting to mount my nikon1 lense onto my DSLR? Dont see it happening..

the adapter will need lense elements a bit like a TC to extend the light rays across the space that is the mirrorbox .. seem like some really complex optics, if its possible at all, without the lense elements crashing into the "TC".

Thinking a bit more about it its probably possible but it will have to have several elements and will likely cost as much as a TC.

That is not accurate.

Assuming the same sensor size, and this thread appears to be about DX or FX mirrorless, then lenses above 58mm (for FX, 38 mm for DX) have no necessary optical difference whether SLR or mirrorless, the only difference being mechanical in that a mirrorless body design may want a shorter flange to focal plane distance to have a thinner body. Lenses above 58mm FL of standard double gauss design, will naturally have a rear element that clears an FX mirror.

Wide angle lenses for mirrorless could take advantage of shorter required rear element clearance, and not be mountable on an SLR regardless of mount since they would not clear the mirror.

However, modern WA lenses for digital tend to be retrofocus (even Leica's new lenses) because digital sensors have problems with light hitting at acute angles.

There would therefore be no need for any additional optical component, and for lenses above 58mm (35mm for DX) there would be no optical design difference either.

New lenses could be essentially an F mount with additional electrical connections if needed to optimize the mirrorless body, and an included adapter that would add the spacing needed for a thinner body and extend the electrical connections.

Then a customer with both SLR and mirrorless (which for a time may be most of us), can use existing F mount lenses, and buy new lenses for use on both mounts.

The only downside is that a 2 part mount is more complicated mechanically and needs tight tolerances.

Regards ... Harold

Ironheart

The "mirrorless to mirror" adaptor is no worse, and in some cases, much better than a teleconverter. Nikon will find a clever way to maintain the viability of the classic F-mount. It is their claim to fame, and will be for the foreseeable future. Also the tolerances don't matter as much because mirrorless will use contrast detection right on the sensor, so perfect focus regardless of the slop in the mount.

manhattanboy

the adapter will need lense elements a bit like a TC to extend the light rays across the space that is the mirrorbox .. seem like some really complex optics, if its possible at all, without the lense elements crashing into the "TC".

Look at http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-m/3
Canon's mirrorless uses an adapter that looks like the FT-1 for the Nikon 1 series to allow FF lenses to work on their mirrorless body. It is likely that if Nikon were to change the mount, they would follow Canon and do the same thing.

Also most people here think I am foolish to suggest Nikon keep the F-mount for their new mirrorless line. Well, in addition to me, at least Thom thinks so:

will Nikon do what they did with the previous two pivots and just keep the existing mount intact, or will they succumb to the "thin camera" movement? By that, I mean this: the primary thing a mirror box does is make a camera thicker. You can still make smaller DSLRs with a mirror box, just not thin ones. Moreover, I like a strong hand grip, which tends to stick out as much as the lens mount does on a Nikon DSLR. (As I've noted elsewhere, the supposedly "small" Olympus E-M1 has a right hand grip that technically makes that camera "thicker" than a Nikon Df.)

In other words, will we have a Nikon "mirrorless" system that uses the F-mount? I've been betting on "yes" for five years now. To bet otherwise would be to bet that Nikon doesn't understand how they made the last two pivots intact.

Good read on the Mirrorless transition by Thom here:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/can-you-trust-the-camera.html
I still think Nikon should keep the F-mount for their new mirrorless line. For "thin and small" they have the Nikon 1 series, which they could improve by popping in a DX sensor as the Nikon engineers have already alluded to.

snakebunk

I think it will be a new mount with an adapter. Not sure it will be full frame though. I am guessing dx and full frame later on. Like when the DSLRs where introduced.

Even if they came out with a full frame mirrorless tomorrow, they would be late so if they come out only with a DX, they will get slated for it. They have to come out with an FX soon, AND with an adaptor for F mount lenses AND follow up quickly with superb purpose made lenses which will make everybody buy them for their better performance. All of that needs to happen very soon.

I am thinking the most important thing is to come out with something really great. And it is maybe easier to make the best mirrorless dx than the best full frame mirrorless. But I am just guessing. At some point Nikon has to make a mirrorless fx camera and the competition is not getting easier. So maybe it is best to go for it right away. The rumored Sony A9 will be interesting.

spraynpray

Lots of sick humor here.......

+1
On another thread, someone suggest I sell my house
Somthing i find sick, very offensive and totally irrelevant to the subject
there justification being simply they disagreed with everything had written

(

You can see meanings in words that simply aren't there seven. )

FrenchRiviera

...
In other words, will we have a Nikon "mirrorless" system that uses the F-mount? I've been betting on "yes" for five years now.

I agree ;-)

Who is ready to accept such an inesthetic adapter ?
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-a7r/images/a7r-with-a-mount.jpg

sevencrossing

)

at least you find you sick offensive remarks funny . I dont

PB_PM

promise of HD , great colors and no moire from Olympus

Keep in mind that Panasonic and Olympus use a great deal of in camera correction, far beyond what Nikon and Canon try, and even with RAW files at that. When tested with such corrections removed the M4/3s lenses don't look so great.

WestEndFoto

I think it will be a new mount with an adapter. Not sure it will be full frame though. I am guessing dx and full frame later on. Like when the DSLRs where introduced.

Even if they came out with a full frame mirrorless tomorrow, they would be late so if they come out only with a DX, they will get slated for it. They have to come out with an FX soon, AND with an adaptor for F mount lenses AND follow up quickly with superb purpose made lenses which will make everybody buy them for their better performance. All of that needs to happen very soon.

I am thinking the most important thing is to come out with something really great. And it is maybe easier to make the best mirrorless dx than the best full frame mirrorless. But I am just guessing. At some point Nikon has to make a mirrorless fx camera and the competition is not getting easier. So maybe it is best to go for it right away. The rumored Sony A9 will be interesting.

They already make 5 mirrorless cameras. With a flick of the switch to Liveview, all DSLRs are mirrorless. When I see photographers convert to Liveview and no longer use the viewfinder, that will be when the DSLRs days will be numbered, not before.

FrenchRiviera

promise of HD , great colors and no moire from Olympus

Keep in mind that Panasonic and Olympus use a great deal of in camera correction, far beyond what Nikon and Canon try, and even with RAW files at that. When tested with such corrections removed the M4/3s lenses don't look so great.

I use RAW only on both Nikon and Olympus , development in Lightroom , so I don't benefit any auto corrections on OMD EM1 .

I only use 25mm , 45mm and 75mm lenses , sensational results except CA ( easily software corrected ) .
It is true that this lenses are close to perfection and don't really need in camera corrections .

75mm:
http://christophe-nober.photodeck.com/-/galleries/divers/-/medias/75c8e47e-6e1f-4ac9-bfb5-39ce8f9fb244

45mm
http://christophe-nober.photodeck.com/-/galleries/divers/-/medias/5d795936-1a41-4999-8ffc-858c18218206

25mm
http://christophe-nober.photodeck.com/-/galleries/amerique-centrale-sud/-/medias/5877e9a0-0b2b-4e59-a7df-30893a7ff34b

Compared to D800 sensor , the major difference with 4/3 sensor is dynamique range and ability to work on colors .

That said , even though this D800 sensor is above 99% of my needs , I don't object further improvements ;-)

PB_PM

promise of HD , great colors and no moire from Olympus

Keep in mind that Panasonic and Olympus use a great deal of in camera correction, far beyond what Nikon and Canon try, and even with RAW files at that. When tested with such corrections removed the M4/3s lenses don't look so great.

I use RAW only on both Nikon and Olympus , development in Lightroom , so I don't benefit any auto corrections on OMD EM1.

Perhaps you miss understood, but Olympus and Panasonic apply auto corrections to RAW files as well, right out of the box with no user input. Only specific software can disable these auto corrections in post.

haroldp

Hi all,

In the M4/3s and most other mirrorless systems, the adapters do not need lens elements to work.

They do however eliminate automatic coupling of shutter, aperture, metering, and a other 'automatic focusing' and convenience features.

Mike

Mike:
The current generation of M4/3 to 4/3 (olympus DSLR) adapters maintain all of the functionality of the 4/3 lens, including phase detect autofocus.

The reason the first gen did not, was that phase detect autofocus was not supported by the camera bodies, and the older lenses did not support contrast AF.

Current m43 cameras from olympus support phase detect autofocus and legacy lenses that were autofocus work fine.

Olympus' slowness in getting there is why despite an inventory of excellent Olympus 4/3 glass, I jumped ship to Fuji for mirrorless. Since I needed new glass anyway, I had a choice.

Current sensors from Sony support phase detect autofocus so adapters should b easy for Nikon.

... H

FrenchRiviera

...
Keep in mind that Panasonic and Olympus use a great deal of in camera correction, far beyond what Nikon and Canon try, and even with RAW files at that. When tested with such corrections removed the M4/3s lenses don't look so great.

I use RAW only on both Nikon and Olympus , development in Lightroom , so I don't benefit any auto corrections on OMD EM1.

Perhaps you miss understood, but Olympus and Panasonic apply auto corrections to RAW files as well, right out of the box with no user input. Only specific software can disable these auto corrections in post.

RAW is RAW , except somme minors action ( like nowadays Nikon on hot spots ) , no image correction are supported on a RAW file , all happens after development , especially opening RAW files in a non-brand software

heartyfisher

re lense mount stuff... there are 2 things being discussed here..

A) fmount lenses on mirrorless nikon camera .. totally in agreement there .. the adapter is only a spacing component like an extention tube.

Mirrorless lenses mounted on Fmount lenses - this is what @haroldp is suggesting. I am saying that this needs an adapter with elements. he is saying there may be no need since if you make lenses with the same optical formula you can just mount it on the current fmount camera. (which i think is pointless)

PB_PM

RAW is RAW , except somme minors action ( like nowadays Nikon on hot spots ) , no image correction are supported on a RAW file , all happens after development , especially opening RAW files in a non-brand software

And you still don't get it. Take a look at Photozone, they address this issue when reviewing any micro 4/3s lens.

MikeGunter

Hi all,

@ haroldp - I was completely unaware of that. My Panasonic GH2 has several adapters for lenses (I have some rather exotic ones) and use my Nikkors for video work, however even the more expensive Novaflex, which gives a great, smooth aperture, doesn't provide auto-focus or any lens-camera communication.

I'm likely going to divest my M4/3 gear soon anyway. Most of my video has been on the D7100, and I plan to shoot on the D750.

Thanks for the info, though. I do appreciate it. :-)

My best,

Mike

DJBee49

Very interesting.

I may well be in a minority of one here but...... I do not like mirrorless cameras. There, I have said it!

I have been using various medium and 35mm format reflex cameras all my life and will not be moving to mirrorless for serious work. This is not to say that I think serious work is not possible using mirrorless cameras because of course it is. I like the 'proper' optical image of a SLR camera and simply do not like the remoteness and 'video' quality of the mirrorless alternative. I would go further and say that I love the qualities associated with the experience of using reflex cameras. My apologies to mirrorless enthusiasts and yes, I have tried some contemporary examples, albeit only in camera shops!

I understand the technical adavantages of junking the mirror box and with it the complexities, expense and limitations of the reflex system but for me it does not out-weigh the personal advantages. I can just about envisage buying a mirrorless to use as a small, snapshot camera (only because of its small size) and it is possible that others might also think like this. I would, however, be unlikely to contemplate this if I was then unable to use my range of beautiful F mount lenses on it. Indeed, I would not buy such a camera and would be extremely surprised if Nikon would even contemplate producing a serious, FX format mirrorless camera that would not accommodate existing F mount lenses. That would seem to me to be commercial suicide!

FrenchRiviera

RAW is RAW , except somme minors action ( like nowadays Nikon on hot spots ) , no image correction are supported on a RAW file , all happens after development , especially opening RAW files in a non-brand software

And you still don't get it. Take a look at Photozone, they address this issue when reviewing any micro 4/3s lens.

When they say :
When analyzing uncorrected RAW files ...

They depart from RAW files but they don't activate any optical corrections in the software while developping , so they can observe the real optical performance , that's what they mean by "uncorrected" .

RAW means raw ;-)
http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf

MikeGunter

Hi all,

@DJBee49

"I may well be in a minority of one here but...... I do not like mirrorless cameras. There, I have said it!"

To each, his own.

I've carried six bodies with differing formats and lenses walking over terrible terrain and horrible conditions for miles and miles and for weeks with about a hundred pounds of other gear. It was in a shooting war zone, and frankly, a silent shutter would have made a real difference.

A lighter camera seems quite attractive to me, and I would think, to some others, too.

Assuming that Nikon enters into the full frame mirrorless market (an assumption I'm not making), I should think they will make a new lens mount and an adapter for the f-mount, but that's just my opinion.

But as for the marketplace, there just isn't a 'one size fits all'.

That becomes a 'one size fits none'.

My best,

Mike

FrenchRiviera

I may well be in a minority of one here but...... I do not like mirrorless cameras. There, I have said it!

You may don't like it for personal good reasons , so , some may like it for personal good reasons , nobody is obliged to buy .

I like both systems , for different reasons ... ;-)

WestEndFoto

I just wonder what the utility will be. Eliminate the mirror mechanism and save a hundred bucks. That would be valuable to a budget user. It might be thinner and save a bit of weight. But take my battery pack off of my D800 and it feels as light as a feather. Etc. Etc. All very nice. But I don't see this warranting a new lens line for FX. Switch my D800 to Liveview and I have mirrorless. Sure Nikon could make a mirrorless version of the D800, but people would complain about that.

Now if Nikon introduces a new sensor format, say DX or medium format, I can see that. But I can't see them compromising their customer base's investment in the current system.

spraynpray

I'm with @DJBee49 - I don't like mirrorless either, preferring the ergonomics and general feel of the good old SLR. I don't have big hands but there is a rightness about the traditional SLR.

I just hope the SLR continues for at least a couple of generations more alongside any mirrorless that appears.