Your Move Nikon..50 MP?

paulr

With the announcement from a well known DSLR manufacture of a 50,000 megapixel camera being produced in early 2015. No doubt Nikon are well in the final stages of producing a D /whatever to compete, and with a clear statement from Nikon that they intend to produce high megapixel cameras in the future. It will be interesting to see what both manufactures put on the cameras to try and be king of the pile. Will also be interesting to see where Nikon price this new super camera, I am sure we all remember the Nikon D3X, and how they got that price wrong.

sevencrossing

It will be a Pro Dx mirrorless with 10fps for less than $1,800
Maybe

donaldejose

Funny! A 50mp DX sensor seems impossible now, doesn't it? Yet, I wonder if we will see things in our lifetime which seem impossible now.

sevencrossing

15 years ago the D1 was Dx and had only 2.7 mp
Pros, the world over, confidently predicted, digital would never replace film

haroldp

Nikon's pattern has been to increase pixel density in DX sensors, and then expand that density to FX.
16 mp DX became 36 mp FX.

The current 24mp DX sensor will yield a 54 mp FX sensor.

I expect the next generations to be 36mp DX which will yield an FX sensor of approx 82mp.

At those levels, aliasing should disappear, and it is questionable whether existing lens technology yields any further real improvement if we go beyond that.

Then again lenses can get better, witness the Zeiss Otus and Leica APO summicrons.

Military/ industrial optics are well beyond what is available commercially for photography, and our history of technology growth is pretty much the migration of military technology to the commercial sector. Mass production then solves the cost issues.

I hope my skills can keep up.

... Harold

nek4life

When the 50mp camera finally comes out all the D800/E/10 owners are going to say 50mp is too much. 36mp is fine, we really don't need more. 50mp file sizes are way too big. We're still waiting for our D800/E/10 replacement. Nikon will never make a camera that is as good as the D800/E/10 ever again... It is the perfect camera...

sevencrossing

When the 50mp camera finally comes out all the D800/E/10 owners are going to say 50mp is too much. 36mp is fine,

This D800 owner wont
I have already started saving
and yes a new computer and lens is in the budget

framer

The fight should be over the processing engine IMHO. Do we really need to read a newspaper from orbit? :-B

framer

WestEndFoto

Funny! A 50mp DX sensor seems impossible now, doesn't it? Yet, I wonder if we will see things in our lifetime which seem impossible now.

While I agree with nek4life - more megapixels are usually better. However, there comes a point.....

The current 24 megapixel DX sensor already out resolves every DX lens. It out resolves the DX portion of every FX lens except the Macros and super teles. Basically, only 1 percent of 1 percent of DX users would benefit from more megapixels on DX. While this number is better for FX, the vast majority of FX users with their lenses would not be able to see an increase in sharpness upgrading from a D810 to a 54 megapixel sensor.

To me, cameras are becoming less and less interesting. The real action is in the lenses.............

........watch what Nikon does with fluorite elements.

haroldp

This is an interesting thread because all of the points are valid, the conclusion one reaches depends on our respective viewpoints and what we are trying to do.

Some points to ponder.

We (homo sapiens) tend to initially look at new technology in terms of how will it help what we are already doing, rather than will it enable us to do new things. In 1997 intel stock collapsed because the New York Times reported that there would be no market for faster CPU's, the then current 100mhz (single core pentium) was already faster than anyone could type into their word processor or browse the web. I knew better and bought intel and did very well (4 X my investment in a year). I just installed the new DXO rel 10, whose 'prime' noise reduction processing is bringing my new 6 X 3.5 GHz mac pro to it's knees. This DXO noise reduction however is saving some of my high iso shots that were previously consigned to the archives. It is probably based on their military image analysis work.

4K video editing will stress almost any consumer available computer.

To me, the question is not 'is digital as good / better than film', I can do things with digital that I were much less likely with film.

- High FPS wildlife capture
- HDR
- stitching panoramas
etc.

Lenses will get better, witness the Zeiss Otus and Leica APO summicrons. The Leica can out resolve any commercial sensor now available and possibly the next generation as well. They are based on Zeiss's and Leica's military and industrial designs. Fuji certainly makes military optics, and I think that Nikon does as well.

What kind of reach can we have with sensors 2-4 times as dense as currently, with low noise and optics to match. A rig that can perform like my 800mm on a D810 that is 1/2 the size and weight will enable me to go places and get shots I can't get now just as my current rig lets me do things I couldn't do 15 years ago.

Yes great wildlife and sports shots were done with film (some by me), but anyone who has ever actually handled a 50 ft 35mm film cassette and motor drive on a Nikon F (still limited to 4 fps max) will have no desire to do it today, and very few could afford it (other people paid for the rig I was using) and the infrastructure to carry it around, set up, process film etc.

The result of fewer people and less access to places resulted in fewer great shots.

The best processing algos were not possible 5 years ago (yes math is eternal) because no computer available to civilians could handle them in any time frame we would be willing to live with.

DXO prime noise reduction on a single D810 image attaches 12 cores (1130% cpu utilization) for 45 - 65 seconds on my 2014 mac pro which is by far the most powerful computer fit for home use (yes you can buy and install a rack and blade system at home if you want to spend that much and have no wife).

The point is that new capability is not only about doing what we do today, but better, but about what is made possible or accessible or practical that was not so before.

Sorry for the rant .... Harold

sevencrossing

but anyone who has ever actually handled a 50 ft 35mm film cassette and motor drive on a Nikon F (still limited to 4 fps max) will have no desire to do it today, and very few could afford it (other people paid for the rig I was using) and the infrastructure to carry it around, set up, process film etc.

O..... those were the days

but no I dont want to go back ether
that said I did manage one the first colour covers of Nature with such a set up

WestEndFoto

haroldp, I mostly agree with you.

My point is that with the lenses currently on the market, and at prices that are affordable, there is little or no IQ to be gained by having more megapixels.

I am looking forward to lenses getting better which will have a direct positive impact on resolution, but lens quality advances at a much slower pace than camera design.

sevencrossing

IQ is not just about resolution, it is also about dynamic range and colour depth, both seem to helped by more mp

WestEndFoto

Yeah, I have often wondered about the dynamic range. There is an interesting discussion here:

https://photographylife.com/nikon-vs-canon-dynamic-range

Which seems to support your comment Sevencrossing as the camera with the best dynamic range has the most picels.

Then there is this discussion:

http://www.dpreview.com/glossary/camera-system/pixels

Which says that more megapixels should reduce dynamic range as the pixels become smaller.

However, the DXO Mark comparision of the D4s vs the D810 13.3EVS vs 14.8EVS.

Sevencrossing, this makes me think that you are practically correct based on this sample for the moment, but the advantage is based more on product life cycles than an engineering advantage.

autofocus

More megapixels means more cropping power too. I don't care about "get it right in camera" when my subject exceeds the focal length of my lens. Also, I can draw more compositions from one frame. I love my D8xx cameras for that reason as much as all the others. I'm not a professional so I can make up for my rookie mistakes with that much image to work with. I would love to see 50+ MP. I disagree on the resolving power of current lenses. I think they are doing fine. I usually don't have normal people zoom into 300% on my photos. That's usually limited to my photography friends that pixel peep and point out all the CA and soft pixels. Funny thing, they never ask to purchase any of the photos while I get requests from friends, family, and others that do. Lenses must be doing just fine.

Msmoto

And, some folks were on this thread so we are all on the same track.... I hope

http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/3732/any-word-on-a-higher-megapixel-camera-from-nikon-then-d810#Item_5

WestEndFoto

More megapixels means more cropping power too. I don't care about "get it right in camera" when my subject exceeds the focal length of my lens. Also, I can draw more compositions from one frame. I love my D8xx cameras for that reason as much as all the others. I'm not a professional so I can make up for my rookie mistakes with that much image to work with. I would love to see 50+ MP. I disagree on the resolving power of current lenses. I think they are doing fine. I usually don't have normal people zoom into 300% on my photos. That's usually limited to my photography friends that pixel peep and point out all the CA and soft pixels. Funny thing, they never ask to purchase any of the photos while I get requests from friends, family, and others that do. Lenses must be doing just fine.

I think that you have listed lots of good reasons why more megapixels is better. However, regarding your comment about disagreeing on the resolving power of certain lenses, the lenses and sensor are part of a system and the weakest link, roughly speaking, will determine the ultimate resolving power of the system (let me call this SYSTEM SHARPNESS). Unless I stop down, my 85mm 1.4G and 135mm DC 2.0 are out resolved by my D800 and the limiting factor is SYSTEM SHARPNESS is the lens. This is an obvious effect, not a subtle one. I am willing to bet that wide open, even the Sigma Arts are the bottlenecks in SYSTEM SHARPNESS (I saw a test somewhere that demonstrated this).

While more megapixels will help at f/5.6 and maybe f/8.0 (at some point sharpness declines due to diffraction), I would not pay much for better sharpness here and would prefer to see better lens sharpness at f/1.4 - 2.0 where better sensor sharpness will merely improve the sharpness of the "mush".

Now I do think that there are uses which would benefit from more megapixels - where System Sharpness is limited by the sensor, not the lens. Some are:

-Superteles which are very sharp at all apertures - the new 400mm 2.8 is a very interesting development and hopefully a harbinger of things to come.
-Most professional grade lenses when stopped down.
-Macro lenses.

But even here, once 50 is achieved, the opportunities for increasing System Sharpness become few and far between and even more esoteric.

I suspect that next "increased megapixel" iteration of the Nikon sensor will be a 54 megapixel sensor and I predict it will make its first appearance in a D820 or D900. I will likely even buy it to use on the Superteles. However, past 54 megapixels, I will roll my eyes and only buy it if that is the only way to get other features that are important to me (unless better lenses become available - but remember, lens quality improvement is quite slow compared to sensor quality).

I am also looking forward to this "megapixel race" to play itself out. I then think that System Sharpness will benefit from a golden age in lens design and users will focus on what is really important, the lenses. I think that is something to look forward to.

rmp

If 50mp means mirror less and lighter weight, I'm in. Where can I place an order?

heartyfisher

Nikon has a problem in that their Expeed processor cannot be made parallel processed. ( unlike the canon processors.) so 50mp is going to have slow FPS.

donaldejose

We may soon see new lenses developed for high megapixel sensors; recent examples would be the Otus 55 and 85 lenses, and the Sigma Art 35 and 50 (and maybe soon 85) lenses. As Nikon designs new lenses they might keep a 50 mp sensor in mind. I would think any new DX fast prime lenses should be designed for 24mp DX sensors and any new FX fast prime lenses should be designed for 50mm FX sensors.

NSXTypeR

You know what, I'll worry about it when they come out with it.

As far as I'm concerned, anything "announced but is coming soon" is as good as vaporware for me.

kanuck

This has got to be the Nikon D4x I imagine. I actually thought it was going to be announced this week just like the D3x was making it a holiday season release, but obviously it didn't happen. Canon is going to release their 3D model 50mp+ monster in the 1st quarter it sounds like as well so I am sure Nikon is up to something.

http://www.canonrumors.com/category/photography/canon-1d-xs/

Golf007sd

@kanuck: Canon is taking a much needed step here....the are having many of their die-hard shooters, jumping ship and getting the D810 and loving it.

Now, as far as megapixels goes...fine by me, BUT, I would much rather have better dynamic range with the added bonus of 16-bit RAW files. This is the area that will really make your images come alive. Medium format image quality @ D-SLR pricing. That to me is the winning ticket for Nikon (or Canon).

As for lenses, I have a strong belief that all my lenses will be able to handle the added MP.

spraynpray

Nikon has a problem in that their Expeed processor cannot be made parallel processed. ( unlike the canon processors.) so 50mp is going to have slow FPS.

That has always been a concern of mine too, but why is it thought of as some kind of brick wall that cannot be got over? If they can develop the rest of the camera to the standard it now is, I'm sure a new processing engine is possible?

Count me in for improved dynamic range and lowest noise before more mega pixels any day BTW..

snakebunk

I don't mind megapixels but when it comes to the D820 I hope it will have more fps rather than more mp.

Has anybody stumbled upon a situation where the D800/D810 has too few pixels? I don't think I have.

heartyfisher

Nikon has a problem in that their Expeed processor cannot be made parallel processed. ( unlike the canon processors.) so 50mp is going to have slow FPS.

That has always been a concern of mine too, but why is it thought of as some kind of brick wall that cannot be got over? If they can develop the rest of the camera to the standard it now is, I'm sure a new processing engine is possible?

Count me in for improved dynamic range and lowest noise before more mega pixels any day BTW..

the thing is the processor chip and operating system is not made by nikon. Nikon just writes the programs that run on it. its like DOS vs CPM ( ;-) for those old enough or technical enough to remember or know :-) )