New Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless Being Field Tested Now!

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  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited May 2015
    ..
    I think the next push will be software that can deal with imperfections created by sensors and lenses. That will let us use smaller sensors and smaller lenses in the future = DSLR quality in a smaller and lighter box.
    Thanks to software, we already have tiny sensors, in smart phones, producing remarkably high IQ
    In the days of film there were some very small full frame cameras, such as the Olympus XA
    The RX1R is compact and full frame
    So in theory, you do need a cropped sensor to make a camera that will fit in your pocket
    Software can only correct or modify an image . It cannot add, what is not there
    A full frame sensor will always have more information than an equivalent cropped sensor
    IMHO full frame 36 x 24 will continue to win for another 50 years
    maybe future lenses will have a chip which will correct its defects in camera

    I cannot get to grips with the term "DSLR" being used to measure IQ


    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • haroldpharoldp Posts: 984Member
    Current lenses already have chips that correct some of their defects in camera.

    Distortion, vignetting, lca, and aca corrections are mapped in lens embedded chips. Olympus pioneered this, and Fuji does this aggressively,

    It would be nice if EXIF parameter standards could be added to contain this data for PP as well, but Fuji and Olympus correct the RAW data as well as jpg's.

    That is one reason Nikon could use a more modern mount, the 'F' mount does not have the electrical connections for this.

    .... H
    D810, D3x, 14-24/2.8, 50/1.4D, 24-70/2.8, 24-120/4 VR, 70-200/2.8 VR1, 80-400 G, 200-400/4 VR1, 400/2.8 ED VR G, 105/2 DC, 17-55/2.8.
    Nikon N90s, F100, F, lots of Leica M digital and film stuff.

  • haroldpharoldp Posts: 984Member
    One of the reasons current Fuji and Olympus lenses are so uniformly excellent, is that the optical designers concentrate on parameters that cannot be corrected digitally while sacrificing those that can.

    .... H
    D810, D3x, 14-24/2.8, 50/1.4D, 24-70/2.8, 24-120/4 VR, 70-200/2.8 VR1, 80-400 G, 200-400/4 VR1, 400/2.8 ED VR G, 105/2 DC, 17-55/2.8.
    Nikon N90s, F100, F, lots of Leica M digital and film stuff.

  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member

    That is one reason Nikon could use a more modern mount, the 'F' mount does not have the electrical connections for this.

    .... H
    The original F mount did not have any electrical connections
    I imagine additional contacts could be added, without compromising backward compatibility
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    In some way software can add things that are not there - think of a healing brush.

    If you think of a picture full of noise - there you have a lot of information - that is - some of it is the wrong kind. I think we will have software that can clean up a picture without taking away resolution - fill in the blanks.

    We may have other imperfections that are known in advance so our software knows what to look for and what to do about it.

    We may have to help the computer in some cases - that is what we do today by moving sliders - in the future we will have "automatic sliders" or the computer asking us if we like this version better than that version - guiding us to better pictures.

    That way we may be able to cram large sensors in to small boxes - glue a small not-so-good lens in front of the sensor and still get away with good pictures.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member

    That way we may be able to cram large sensors in to small boxes - glue a small not-so-good lens in front of the sensor and still get away with good pictures.
    That is exactly what i am hoping for in the new nikon mirrorless
  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,441Member
    No, not a great sensor in a small box matched to a bad lens relying upon software to fix the image. Great FX and DX sensors (and Nikon has them with more to come) should be in small boxes with interchangeable lenses allowing backwards compatibility to Nikon's great G lens series at least. The small box should have a command dial and a subcommand dial so you can make adjustments the way you do on your current DSLR. Since a small box will not have space for a lot of dedicated buttons use a touch LCD interface like the D5500 to control items quickly. There can be a set of compact dedicated lenses for those who want to travel light or have a "pocket camera" but Nikon must provide a spacer or adapter to allow the use of DX and FX DSLR lenses. That is the type of mirrorless FX and DX body we will see when Nikon releases one.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,675Member
    I agree, this is an easy fix.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,675Member
    One of the reasons current Fuji and Olympus lenses are so uniformly excellent, is that the optical designers concentrate on parameters that cannot be corrected digitally while sacrificing those that can.

    .... H
    The more Nikon and Canon do this, the more third party manufacturers like Sigma will struggle to compete. Also note that the lens does not need to store this information. The camera just needs to know the parameters of the lenses attached to it. I am sure Sigma will never be in that database.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited May 2015
    but Nikon must provide a spacer or adapter to allow the use of DX and FX DSLR lenses.
    No need if Nikon keep the F mount. They have proven with the D3300 a small camera with an F mount is possible

    They just need to fit a FX sensor and make a few FX "pancake" lenses to go with it


    WestEndFoto
    Also note that the lens does not need to store this information. The camera just needs to know the parameters of the lenses attached to it.

    All lenses are slightly different. My idea is, the lens has fine tuning and corrections built in
    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,675Member
    but Nikon must provide a spacer or adapter to allow the use of DX and FX DSLR lenses.
    No need if Nikon keep the F mount. They have proven with the D3300 a small camera with an F mount is possible
    they just need to fit a FX sensor and make a few FX "pancake" lenses to go with it


    WestEndFoto
    Also note that the lens does not need to store this information. The camera just needs to know the parameters of the lenses attached to it.

    All lenses are slightly different. My idea is, the lens has fine tuning and corrections built in
    Hmmmm.......I wonder if there is a way to fine tune in camera. You are implying the lens will know. But if the lens knows, why not make the lens correct in the first place. The need for camera and lens fine tuning is really driven by less than exact tolerances. Do you agree?
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,507Moderator
    Drifting away from a Nikon full frame mirrorless into other areas...hanging onto the topic by the finger nails... :D
    Always learning.
  • sevencrossingsevencrossing Posts: 2,800Member
    edited May 2015
    Drifting away from a Nikon full frame mirrorless into other areas.D
    In addition to being full frame and mirrorless the Blog suggests, it will F mount and very small

    This presents some challenges both in body and lens construction
    I think we are discussing what mirrorless lenses Nikon might bring out
    But happy to start a new thread
    Non existing mirrorless lenses for non existing mirrorless Cameras

    Post edited by sevencrossing on
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,507Moderator
    LOL - You old cynic seven!
    Always learning.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,441Member
    Does F-mount mean the flange which accepts the lens or does it necessarily include the distance from the sensor to that flange? If Nikon "uncouples" the flange dimensions from the sensor to flange dimension Nikon could produce a much thinner body with pancake lenses plus a spacer to add the old sensor to flange distance so all our DSLR Nikon mount lenses can be used. It seems keeping the old sensor to flange distance when you don't have a mirror to occupy that space is a needless waste of an opportunity to compact both the body and some new lenses.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    edited May 2015
    Gee, I said the same thing on page 4... This also means the "spacer" is really just an extension tube, already available:
    image
    Post edited by Ironheart on
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,441Member
    Maybe, but we don't know the mm needed yet.
  • IronheartIronheart Posts: 3,017Moderator
    I'm proposing 20mm as it will allow for Leica lenses, but now I'm just repeating myself ;-) Current Nikon extension tubes are 8, 14, and 27.5mm. The popular Kenko set I've shown above are 12, 20 and 36mm.
  • snakebunksnakebunk Posts: 991Member
    edited May 2015
    The downside is that you can not use old cameras with new lenses if you change the distance. But I am also repeating myself :-).

    I think it maybe doesn't have to be such a big deal. Just remove the mirror and optical viewfinder and add an electronical dito. Some will buy cameras from another brand because of the size though.
    Post edited by snakebunk on
  • haroldpharoldp Posts: 984Member
    You cannot effectively use a 'G' lens on a pre F100 camera, as there is no way to control the aperture.

    ... H
    D810, D3x, 14-24/2.8, 50/1.4D, 24-70/2.8, 24-120/4 VR, 70-200/2.8 VR1, 80-400 G, 200-400/4 VR1, 400/2.8 ED VR G, 105/2 DC, 17-55/2.8.
    Nikon N90s, F100, F, lots of Leica M digital and film stuff.

  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,493Member
    You cannot effectively use a 'G' lens on a pre F100 camera, as there is no way to control the aperture.

    ... H
    Indeed, you can sort of work around it in P mode, which I've done the odd time with my F90x. Not the best solution, particularly with film.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • haroldpharoldp Posts: 984Member
    @PB_PM

    You are correct.

    The point is that Nikon is apparently willing to sacrifice some degree of backward compatibility if there is sufficient technical or economic advantage.

    That being said, Nikon with the F mount has maintained a higher degree of compatibility than any other manufacturer. Canon changed their mount in incompatible ways 3 times since Nikon's introduction of the F mount, and to this day, Canon crop format lnses will not even mount on their FF or APS-H (1.3 crop) cameras.

    ... H

    D810, D3x, 14-24/2.8, 50/1.4D, 24-70/2.8, 24-120/4 VR, 70-200/2.8 VR1, 80-400 G, 200-400/4 VR1, 400/2.8 ED VR G, 105/2 DC, 17-55/2.8.
    Nikon N90s, F100, F, lots of Leica M digital and film stuff.

  • henrik1963henrik1963 Posts: 561Member
    Some things are better if they are not too small :-) I want mine to be compatible with older models too :-)

    Leave the F-mount alone.
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