Ditching f mount once Nikon goes mirrorless?

FreezeAction

I don't plan on abandoning Nikon F mount for mirrorless as the FF Nikon body has the cleanest higher ISO's I sometimes need. Still I don't plan on waiting for Nikon to build a mirrorless that suits me to buy one soon.

DaveyJ

The DSLR is a long way from dead, Nikon knows where the sales are! Since I know, people who have done shoot outs if mirrorless vs DSLR and this imagined superiority of mirrorless is a lot more imagination than fact. Dropping the F Mount, the single reason I switched to Nikon, is a lot more problematic than many here think. Why, Nikon and Canon are NOT willing to sacrifice DSLR sales, Why? It would be suicidal for them to do so. What is going on at Nikon I am sure is a lens design and sales review and practical possible offerings rather than some radical what if??? I own and use Nikon 1 cameras. I looked long and hard at Sony mirrorless. I own and my family owns a lot of Sony video cameras, but mirrorless? Right now I am fairly content to wait and see what Nikon develops. For those of you if such free thinking pro mirrorless, this is your cup of tea. Some of the touted lens would be monsters of no actual value, hence no sales. The nicest mirrorless lens I ever used were F narrow aperture, not wide open jumbos.

vtc2002

Nikon could have a different strategy in mind. Since they are late to bring a FF mirrorless to the market, many of their customer that want a mirrorless camera may or are contemplating switching to another brand. That switch requires that they but new lenses and accessories. Those that are contemplating switching are faced with the same scenario. Since those customers all ready have the mind set that they are going to have to invest in new gear the timing may be right for Nikon to introduce a new system. If Nikon releases a game changer mirrorless camera with a new mount and a great set of lenses it will draw new customers. Existing customers would not have to sell off their existing equipment and switch brands. I see it very similar to switching from DX to FX. It also depends on their long-term strategy. If they are looking to be in the medium format mirrorless space developing a new mount that can be used on FF and MF now would be a good decision. This all depends on timing, strategy and producing a killer product.

richiero

I would have have some real issues, with a mirrorless camera, that doesn't take current F mount lens, without an adapter. If it means that the camera is a little bigger, I can live with that. Since I use some pretty big lenses, it wouldn't make much of a difference if the camera was the same size, as what I am currently using. Lighter isn't important either, because I wouldn't perceive a weight difference of a few ounces, with a 7 1/2 lb lens attached. In fact camera weight to counter balance such a lens, may be advantageous. Their are other issues about mirrorless, which makes me skeptical, but given time, those issues will be solved.
Having said all this, I believe that Nikon will create a unique lens set for mirrorless, that will address the small lens opening and provide optimum imaging and focusing for such a camera. So that leaves me entrenched in the DSLR camp.

donaldejose

Looks like Nikon mirrorless may have a new mount to optimize new lenses with a shorter flange to sensor distance but Nikon will produce an adopter to use all the old DLSR F-mount lenses.

WestEndFoto

If Nikon brings out a new mount in a way that even hints that my investment in f-mount glass will be devalued, I will consider moving to Canon before that devaluation occurs.

I thought long and hard about this before committing to a new 58, 105 and 400.

However, I think that Nikon is alive to this risk, perhaps even obsessing with it, so my judgement was that I would risk proceeding with the above purchase.

That said, I can imagine Nikon introducing a full frame mirrorless at the high end oriented towards portrait photographers. I would love to have focus points covering the entire frame as the current focus point coverage, even expanded as it is on the D850, makes some of my compositions impossible using auto-focus. I would be interested in such a camera as a complement to my D850 (well, not mine yet - on order).

Simultaneously, I can imagine Nikon also introducing a mirrorless line of cameras, from the low to the high end, with a shorter flange to sensor distance using an adapter. This could be designed for the photographer that wants something small and compact and the lenses would be small and compact. Perhaps 5 or 6 primes less than 100mms and some f/4.0 zooms. A photographer that wanted to use bigger lenses could buy an f-mount.

And again simultaneously, they would restate their commitment to the f-mount in a convincing and unequivocal way

If Nikon did it this way, I would not feel that my investment is threatened.

BVS

WestEndFoto said:

If Nikon brings out a new mount in a way that even hints that my investment in f-mount glass will be devalued, I will consider moving to Canon before that devaluation occurs.

It's quite possible that Canon will do the same thing with their FF mirrorless though.

Pistnbroke

If they use the existing mount diameter and move it closer to the sensor it will be a huge restriction for design so its clear that a mount closer to the sensor will need to be larger . adaptor will also then not be a problem.

WestEndFoto

BVS said:

WestEndFoto said:

If Nikon brings out a new mount in a way that even hints that my investment in f-mount glass will be devalued, I will consider moving to Canon before that devaluation occurs.

It's quite possible that Canon will do the same thing with their FF mirrorless though.

Yes, I thought of that. Thus I would "consider" and that would be the prime factor in my "consideration".

WestEndFoto

Pistnbroke said:

If they use the existing mount diameter and move it closer to the sensor it will be a huge restriction for design so its clear that a mount closer to the sensor will need to be larger . adaptor will also then not be a problem.

F-mount glass that is being refreshed and has a line of cameras that don't need adapters will retain its value. But what are old Konica and Minolta lenses worth these days?

Pistnbroke

There will be a line of lenses to fit the new mount and then an adaptor for the old ones ..I dont see a problem ..bet the adaptor wont be $50 !!
It will be a long time before they stop making DSLRs taking the F mount, The two will co exist ...

richiero

Pistnbroke said:

There will be a line of lenses to fit the new mount and then an adaptor for the old ones ..I dont see a problem ..bet the adaptor wont be $50 !!

richiero

LOL Nikon sells the FT1 F lens to Nikon 1 camera adapter, dying format for $237. Nikon isn't going to give an F mount to mirrorless away.

BVS

Pistnbroke said:

It will be a long time before they stop making DSLRs taking the F mount, The two will co exist ...

I wonder though, practically speaking, if Nikon would have the resources to continue maintaining both lineups effectively. They're already only producing a half dozen new lenses a year, and two or three dslrs. If they have to divide their resources in half then updates may be few and far between.

vtc2002

If Nikon designs their mirrorless camera around existing lenses they will fail at their attempt to enter the FF mirrorless market. Nikon has only one chance to get this right and they should be designing the mirrorless camera that beats the pants off all of the competition. Why cripple the design to accommodate the f mount? All indications are that they will not use the f mount and have a new series of lenses for the mirrorless camera. I do not see the mirrorless camera replacing my DSLRs but as a supplement. At some point in the future mirrorless will replace the DSLR but not now.

PB_PM

I see no reason to change the mount at all. Just keep the same, nice ergonomically sound designs and make them mirrorless. Sony FF mirrorless lenses are not magically lighter and smaller than Nikon FF lenese. The bodies are smallish, still not pocketable; not to mention that they are as uncomfortable to hold as an 1980's film SLR, and have crappy battery life to boot. I'd rather have the same body size we have now, since they are more comfortable to hold, balance better with larger F4/F2.8/F1.4 glass, and can take larger p, longer lasting batteries.

WestEndFoto

I agree with you, but that is what we desire as DSLR users. The Mirrorless Kool-Aid drinkers are a market though.

And I could imagine having the right kind of mirrorless for certain uses myself. That is also a market.

vtc2002

I believe Thom Hogan has a article on his website that describes the technical reasons why Nikon f mount presents a problem. He knows a lot more about than I do on the subject. Removing the mirror allows for a shorter distance from the lens to the sensor. The marketing and sales teams started selling consumers on yhe idea of a smaller and lighter camera and consumers bought into the idea. Placing a 400 or 600mm lens on the D500 feels awkward I can't imagine them on a smaller body.
Nikon needs to release a camera that will provide a path to expand their camera line into the medium format market and attract new buyers (new to Nikon and current Nikon owners) otherwise they will die when the DSLRs die.

WestEndFoto

Are you embracing medium format now VTC2002?

moreorless

vtc2002 said:

If Nikon designs their mirrorless camera around existing lenses they will fail at their attempt to enter the FF mirrorless market. Nikon has only one chance to get this right and they should be designing the mirrorless camera that beats the pants off all of the competition. Why cripple the design to accommodate the f mount? All indications are that they will not use the f mount and have a new series of lenses for the mirrorless camera. I do not see the mirrorless camera replacing my DSLRs but as a supplement. At some point in the future mirrorless will replace the DSLR but not now.

I think it depends rather how they market the camera, keeping the F-mount would not provide the draw to the gear heads chasing new tech for its own sake but it could potentially make for a smaller budget camera. At FF your often trading flange distance for lens size anyway and arguably the biggest saving in size are removing the prism and AF sensor.

The patents listed on the main page for a 52mm 0.9 and 36mm 1.2 mirrorless FF lenses whilst they look a bit large to me do perhaps hint at one direction they could go if they do release a new mirrorless mount. Go for the ultra fast prime market that they've been at a disadvantage in with the F-mount for years. I could see such a system being more of a premium release compared to the Song A7 system which Leica seem to be doing well with, the Nikon brand does I'd say probably have some draw there as well.

vtc2002

I have used medium format for several years. Pentax 645z to Phase One and now Fiji GFX50s. Would like to see Nikon in that area. Canon and Sony will be there. I would like to see Nikon do what Fuji did with the GFX where they will have a 70Mp and 100Mp cameras to go with the 50Mp. Choose the one that fits your needs.

retread

Third party lens makers put different camera mounts on the same lens for different camera makes. Why couldn't Nikon make the same lens in a f mount and a mew mount for mirrorless?

PB_PM

retread said:

Third party lens makers put different camera mounts on the same lens for different camera makes. Why couldn't Nikon make the same lens in a f mount and a mew mount for mirrorless?

Different flange distances require different optical designs, it won't work.

vtc2002 said:

I believe Thom Hogan has a article on his website that describes the technical reasons why Nikon f mount presents a problem. He knows a lot more about than I do on the subject. Removing the mirror allows for a shorter distance from the lens to the sensor. The marketing and sales teams started selling consumers on yhe idea of a smaller and lighter camera and consumers bought into the idea. Placing a 400 or 600mm lens on the D500 feels awkward I can't imagine them on a smaller body..

All well known information. Regardless, I don't see why Nikon cannot make a mirrorless camera of both styles. One that continues to use the F-mount for those of us who want traditional designs, and have big lenses (any super-telephoto that isn't PF basically), as well as those who want tiny little cameras that are good for whatever it is people think they are good for. I just don't see the point in having a camera body that fits in your pocket if the lenses don't.

manhattanboy

vtc2002 said:

If Nikon designs their mirrorless camera around existing lenses they will fail at their attempt to enter the FF mirrorless market. Nikon has only one chance to get this right and they should be designing the mirrorless camera that beats the pants off all of the competition. Why cripple the design to accommodate the f mount? All indications are that they will not use the f mount and have a new series of lenses for the mirrorless camera.

I totally disagree if their entrance is at the full frame level. Nikon has great DSLR sensors but they have yet to prove that they can make a large mirrorless sensor. At this stage they are years behind where Sony is in large mirrorless sensor development, and frankly I do not see the benefit to copying Canon and releasing a new mount that uses the same DSLR sensor given that Nikon is weaker in video functionality. The only competitive advantage they would have in the current market is if they released a mirrorless with a native F mount, as it would instantly be the mirrorless system with the most lenses available.

vtc2002 said:

I believe Thom Hogan has a article on his website that describes the technical reasons why Nikon f mount presents a problem. He knows a lot more about than I do on the subject. Removing the mirror allows for a shorter distance from the lens to the sensor. The marketing and sales teams started selling consumers on yhe idea of a smaller and lighter camera and consumers bought into the idea. Placing a 400 or 600mm lens on the D500 feels awkward I can't imagine them on a smaller body.

Thom has many times noted that Nikon's main competitive strength is their legacy support. He has thus rightfully suggested that they would be foolish to ditch the F mount. Nonetheless, a new mount is exactly what is going to happen sadly, and thus the question becomes how terrible the adapter will be.

I disagree with your notion that a 400 feels awkward on a D500. But mirrorless telephoto for a LONG time was completely untouched. Recently Sony, Oly, Panasonic, and Fuji have all released lenses to 300-400 range. An F-mount mirrorless would allow Nikon to be first to mirrorless supertele as well as first to tilt-shift. At this stage for Nikon, they really should be thinking about how to recapture their lost marketshare, and targeting areas where the competition in unlikely or unable to compete is an easy strategy. Even a lazy approach would likely garner enough support to get Nikon going in mirrorless. For example, Nikon could follow up the D850 release an D850M, where they rip out the mirror and optical viewfinder and place in a translucent mirror to allow for light reflection down to the AF sensor/meter as well as an electronic viewfinder to replace the optical one. Most everything else could remain the same including the F mount.

snakebunk

I think a new mount for medium format mirrorless and adapter for f mount is a good way to go. It is nice to use the available space for a larger sensor instead of smaller cameras, and current DSLRs can live in parallell as long as there is a demand. Using fx lenses on mf (with adapter) has the advantage that you can crop for portrait or landscape without losing resolution.

Nice discussion, I think you all have good points.