Ditching f mount once Nikon goes mirrorless?

Msmoto

I guess I am with the folks who believe the new Nikon Mirrorless will have a different mount. But, the adaptor will be very sophisticated to allow full function of all F mount lenses.

The arguments on a wider diameter throat are certainly valid. I have had limitations in using the F mount on a special adaptor for a Cassegrain reflecting telescope with a 0.81 meter diameter mirror. (About an 11,500 mm focal length at f/13.5) The narrow throat of the F mount when mated to the adaptor created a limitation in image diameter, one which we have as to yet correct with some machining of the adaptor. Had the F mount been with a wider throat, I suspect our problem may not have been a factor.

Here is an example.... note, the edge of the moon surface is at the top, along with a vignetting by the throat diameter, also seen at the bottom.



This telescope is at an altitude of 850 feet, thus a lot of atmospheric issues degrade the image.

donaldejose

I agree with those who think Nikon's mirrorless bodies will use a new mount but Nikon will produce an adopter to allow the use of old F-mount lenses. If Nikon didn't make an adopter third party companies certainly would so if Nikon didn't sell their own adopter Nikon would just be throwing away money they could be earning. Why a new mount? Because the total depth can then be smaller with "pancake lenses" (like the old 50mm series E lens) and f-stop can be 1.0 or 1.2 rather than f1.4. Producing some lenses which can open more than f1.4 will create a lot of interest and produce a lot of new sales but in reality I don't think anything more than f1.4 is really very practical or needed given the high ISO image quality our cameras already have. Do we really need the eyes in focus with the eyebrows out of focus? More of a gimmick, than a needed f stop.

vtc2002

I am not disagreeing with the those that want to keep the f mount. I have a lot of f mount lenses that i would like to keep using on a mirrorless camera. My original point was that I hope Nikon designs their mirrorless camera to be the leader in the market and if that means ditching the f mount or not so be it. They will most likely only have one shot at it and it needs to be really good.
I think part of the problem with the mirrorless market space right now is that it is not well defined. Is it a camera that fits in your pocket, is it a lighter camera than a DX and FX camera, is it a lighter, smaller MF camera,...there are many more attributes that each of you could add to the list and they would be correct based on what you want for what you shoot.
My choice of wording for the 400 or 600mm lens was poor. I was agreeing with PB_PM comment about feeling balanced on a smaller body. The 400 or 600mm doesn't feel as balanced to me on the D500 as it does on the D810. The extra weight of the D810 to me helps balance the weight of the lens. That just my personal preference.
Personally the mirrorless cameras have to mature before i would use them as my primary camera.

PB_PM

manhattanboy said:

I totally disagree if their entrance is at the full frame level. Nikon has great DSLR sensors but they have yet to prove that they can make a large mirrorless sensor. At this stage they are years behind where Sony is in large mirrorless sensor development, and frankly I do not see the benefit to copying Canon and releasing a new mount that uses the same DSLR sensor given that Nikon is weaker in video functionality. The only competitive advantage they would have in the current market is if they released a mirrorless with a native F mount, as it would instantly be the mirrorless system with the most lenses available.

There is nothing special about mirrorless camera's sensors to get behind in. Nikon's on sensor AF from the Nikon 1 series is still considered to be close to the best out there, so behind is hardly the word that I would use. Also, just because Nikon doesn't have it in a production camera today, doesn't mean they stopped development.

Msmoto

Some of us were around back in the days when Nikon F was beginning its assault on the Leica M3. And, apparently Ernst Leitz did not think the SLR was the way to go, eventually dropping from its place on the top of the mountain as one of the top cameras used by the pros to basically a very expensive system, used only by those who wanted a rangefinder camera.

My experience was a Canon 7 with a collapsible f/2 Summicron, a setup which I wish I had today. But, the SLR was the way to go for a wide variety of reasons. Thus my two Nikon F bodies from the 1960's which I still have.

It is my opinion that we are now looking at the next generation of imaging, that being the mirrorless system. If we can have the performance of the DSLR in all respects with mirrorless, plus the advantages of not having to move a mirror up and down to get this performance, then it seems from my perspective this will be the future.

I would go so far as to suggest the DSLR will be sent to the back of the room in much the same way the rangefinder Leicas were. But, whether this occurs in the next two years or the next ten years, i cannot say. Certainly the computing power we now have in cameras will continue to improve, the result being we can have a viewfinder which for all intents and purposes appears to be a direct image viewing through the lens as on a DSLR.

At present I am certainly hoping Nikon will come through and give us a professional mirrorless camera right from the start and not another V1 venture. And that while I am certain it will not have the restricted F mount, I am about as certain it will have a way to use all my Nikkor lenses. If I were a bit younger I might look at some of the other brands like Fuji, Sony, Olympus, etc., but I really want to not have to give up the ten or fifteen Nikkors I presently have in my kit.

Well, there you have it... my opinion, about as valuable as anyone else's on this forum...LOL

PB_PM

All the mirrorless lens patients from Nikon are full frame, so there is no reason to fear that another Nikon 1 system is coming. I don't doubt mirrorless is the future one bit. DSLR's in the future will be for people who cannot let go, and hipsters, just like Leica is today.

Will Nikon bring a new mount? Yes. Will there be an adapter, you bet for $500+ USD.

Should Nikon make two types of mirrorless is the question to me. One for the minimalist people, that has a new mount and adapter, and one for people who want the bigger, more comfortable body with the good old F-mount? I would love it if they did. I doubt that they will, but it sure would be nice.

donaldejose

"Should Nikon make two types of mirrorless is the question to me. One for the minimalist people, that has a new mount and adapter, and one for people who want the bigger, more comfortable body with the good old F-mount? I would love it if they did. I doubt that they will, but it sure would be nice." Why make two different bodies when they can just make an adapter to put on the one body?

PB_PM

That's like saying, why doesn't Nikon only make the D5. Different bodies for different needs, just as they do now. I think Nikon is more than able to make more than one mirrorless body, and that doing so would hardly be redundant. Besides, adapters are usually bulky and would make an already unbalanced combo even more unbalanced.

WestEndFoto

donaldejose said:

I agree with those who think Nikon's mirrorless bodies will use a new mount but Nikon will produce an adopter to allow the use of old F-mount lenses. If Nikon didn't make an adopter third party companies certainly would so if Nikon didn't sell their own adopter Nikon would just be throwing away money they could be earning. Why a new mount? Because the total depth can then be smaller with "pancake lenses" (like the old 50mm series E lens) and f-stop can be 1.0 or 1.2 rather than f1.4. Producing some lenses which can open more than f1.4 will create a lot of interest and produce a lot of new sales but in reality I don't think anything more than f1.4 is really very practical or needed given the high ISO image quality our cameras already have. Do we really need the eyes in focus with the eyebrows out of focus? More of a gimmick, than a needed f stop.

Why do you have to abandon the f-mount to use f/1.2 Donaldejose?

WestEndFoto

PB_PM said:

All the mirrorless lens patients from Nikon are full frame, so there is no reason to fear that another Nikon 1 system is coming. I don't doubt mirrorless is the future one bit. DSLR's in the future will be for people who cannot let go, and hipsters, just like Leica is today.

Will Nikon bring a new mount? Yes. Will there be an adapter, you bet for $500+ USD.

Should Nikon make two types of mirrorless is the question to me. One for the minimalist people, that has a new mount and adapter, and one for people who want the bigger, more comfortable body with the good old F-mount? I would love it if they did. I doubt that they will, but it sure would be nice.

I hope that they go this way.

donaldejose

WestEndFoto: Maybe you don't but I have read in a number of places that Canon's mount has a greater diameter than Nikon's F-mount and that is why Canon can produce some f1.2 lenses (like their 85mm f1.2 lens) which Nikon cannot produce. I am not sure if that is true but it seemed logical to me that the larger the hole in the camera body the larger can be the width of the lens glass and therefor the more light you can get into the body to the sensor. Maybe someone else here can be more definitive on the issue.

WestEndFoto

I think that if the mount was even smaller, they would be able to accommodate 1.2 or even 0.95. The optical solution would just be more bulkier, complex and costly.

donaldejose

Maybe.

www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3471091

Compare the rear elements of the Nikon 85mm f1.4 and the Canon 85mm f1.2

//shashinki.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/kkk_5762.JPG

WestEndFoto

donaldejose said:

Maybe.

www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3471091

Compare the rear elements of the Nikon 85mm f1.4 and the Canon 85mm f1.2

//shashinki.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/kkk_5762.JPG

Interesting. Someday I will meet a Nikon lens designer and ask.

donaldejose

Nikon did make 50mm and 58mm f 1.2 manual focus lens so an f1.2 rear element in that range can fit into the F-mount. http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50mm-f12.htm But it doesn't have the electronic contacts of modern lenses. I don't know if adding the modern electrical contacts would fit without impeding part of the rear element. As I said earlier, I doubt there is even a need for f1.2 anyway. So to me it is a moot point. Bus, as I said, a Nikon 85mm f1.2 for a mirrorless body would attract attention and create "buzz."

BVS

There was an interesting conversation between Peter (NR Admin) and Thom Hogan in the main blog recently, in case others missed it:

Peter Admin > Thom Hogan • 3 days ago
Thom, what is Nikon racing to get out this year?

Thom Hogan > Peter • 3 days ago
If I were a betting man, I'd place my money on Red (DX with three initial lenses).

Peter Admin > Thom Hogan • 3 days ago
Meaning DX mirrorless camera? Or another DX DSLR?

Thom Hogan > Peter • 2 days ago
DX mirrorless cameras (plural), one kit zoom, two unspecified lenses in late 2017, followed by an FX mirrorless using same mount in 2018. I no reason to mistrust this source, but it is an additional source to ones I've used in the past.

Peter Admin > Thom Hogan • 2 days ago
Thanks, very interesting. I have not heard anything about a DX mirrorless, at least not yet. I am assuming a new mount, correct?

Thom Hogan > Peter • 2 days ago
From the source: this was fast tracked very recently, and yes, it's a new mount. Moreover, that mount will have a DX/FX split like the F-mount. As I noted in my recent article, Nikon has pretty much prototyped in some way virtually every mirrorless option they could think of. This was one of them.

donaldejose

Mirrorless arriving so soon kind of makes you think it might be wiser to wait at least until mid 2018 to see what is out instead of buying a D850 now only to end up wanting a Nikon mirrorless instead less than a year from now.

WestEndFoto

If the Mirrorless competes with the D850 I will want both. If they come out with a DF2 I will want that too.

donaldejose

Me too (except no interest in a Df or Df2), but my disposable funds are not at your level. I am hoping for a DX mirrorless body with a pancake prime lens (anywhere from 28 to 50 mm FX equivalent) which is really flat enough to get into a suit or jacket pocket. Doesn't need to be brighter than f1.8 or f2. I purchased a Coolpix A after I saw the photos you had taken with yours. Still a nice camera but I would like EVF, interchangeable lenses and the size can be larger with a better hand grip. Put the D500 sensor and image processing software into such a package with a pancake lens which I can get into a blazer pocket so I can always have it available without seeming to be carrying a camera. Silent shutter of course. Add a brown leather case with strap so if I wear it around my neck it looks like I am carrying a 1960 era rangefinder and thieves will have no interest in stealing such a worthless thing.

WestEndFoto

Well....disposable funds my force me to pick only two, not all three. My Coolpix A is well used item in my bag. I hope Nikon learned all the right lessons from that experiment.

manhattanboy

PB_PM said:

There is nothing special about mirrorless camera's sensors to get behind in.

Have you shot action with an A7rii ?
I have and I will tell you autofocus performance and rolling shutter are real issues. Remember that as you scale up in sensor size, the stress on the AF is much greater as the dof shrinks. The same is true for rolling shutter as well. The A9 is the closest approximation that anyone has come to giving us a full frame Nikon 1 like sensor. I would be ecstatic if Nikon released tomorrow an F-mount mirrorless camera that was capable of Nikon 1 style AF and minimized rolling shutter, but if it were that easy, they would (or is it should) have done that 2 years ago.

donaldejose said:

Why a new mount? Because the total depth can then be smaller with "pancake lenses" (like the old 50mm series E lens) and f-stop can be 1.0 or 1.2 rather than f1.4.

donaldejose said:

WestEndFoto: Maybe you don't but I have read in a number of places that Canon's mount has a greater diameter than Nikon's F-mount

Canon has some amazing glass, and with some of it they have out engineered Nikon. One field that Canon has handily beat Nikon of late is in pancake lenses. However, these are not due to the width of the mount opening, but rather amazing optical engineering. The larger opening helps with the wider angle lenses, and then only with those lenses that use a large aperture. Nikon's opening is really not an excuse for failing to give us normal range pancake primes.

vtc2002 said:

I think part of the problem with the mirrorless market space right now is that it is not well defined. Is it a camera that fits in your pocket, is it a lighter camera than a DX and FX camera, is it a lighter, smaller MF camera,...

I think you hit the fundamental problem on the head. The technology was not well developed, so when mirrorless first started the companies spitting out mirrorless cameras used the only competitive advantage that they had, which was size and weight. Canon's tiny SL1 and SL2 were a direct response to this threat, and to some extent Nikon misunderstood the potential of mirrorless and rather than marketing the superior capabilities (like 60fps) of the Nikon 1 line, instead used shinny paint jobs and gimmicky software features to go along with their tiny and light marketing messages. However, as technology has improved, you have seen a shift in the mirrorless marketing away from size and weight and to features that DSLRs cannot match. Big, bright, and what you see is what you get viewfinders along with 10-20 fps non-stop shooting with continuous autofocus, all while being completely silent. These are some of the new marketing targets, and you see things like the new completely silent mode in the D850 as a response ironically to mirrorless's now superior technological capabilities.

Nikon is unlikely to keep pace with someone like Sony if they choose to lower themselves and compete on a level playing field (which is what they will be doing if they start a new mount). Strategically, they should leverage their existing F-mount user base and gain further returns on their already spent lens R&D by releasing an F-mount mirrorless camera. Why not release a mirrorless F-mount camera that can do things no existing F-mount camera can like shoot silently at 20fps with autofocus? I disagree with their strategy for starting fresh with mirrorless. Adapters are annoying and my favorite lenses for Nikon like the 300pf are not likely to see new mirrorless counterparts for at least a decade if not several decades. It seems like a lost opportunity to throw away the F-mount, but such is life.

WestEndFoto

Autofocus at 20 fps is one thing. Sharp accurate focus wide open every time is another. My understanding is that the Sony comes up short.

PB_PM

manhattanboy said:

PB_PM said:

There is nothing special about mirrorless camera's sensors to get behind in.

Have you shot action with an A7rii ?
I have and I will tell you autofocus performance and rolling shutter are real issues. Remember that as you scale up in sensor size, the stress on the AF is much greater as the dof shrinks. The same is true for rolling shutter as well. The A9 is the closest approximation that anyone has come to giving us a full frame Nikon 1 like sensor. I would be ecstatic if Nikon released tomorrow an F-mount mirrorless camera that was capable of Nikon 1 style AF and minimized rolling shutter, but if it were that easy, they would (or is it should) have done that 2 years ago.

Not that newest A7 models, no. I tried some of the second and third gen models, and was not overly impressed. Their AF was clearly behind the Nikon 1 at that time, so Sony has a way to go.

Rolling shutter is an issue that will improve as sensor readout gets faster. I believe Sony is working on getting the future generation sensors to read the entire sensor all at once, rather than one or few lines at time, which should eliminate that issue altogether.

As for Nikon, I think the shift was are seeing today is due to the change of CEO at Nikon a few years ago. It takes time for new management to get the company headed towards the vision that they have. One thing is clear, the direction is becoming more focused again. Towards the end of his term the previous CEO was throwing everything at the wall, hoping something would stick, and that was ugly to watch.

rmp

Great discussions! Thanks.

manhattanboy

@WestEndFoto the autofocus of the A9 is about on par with the D5/500; it's that good. The problem is the image quality. The lower MP combined with the faster sensor readout doesn't give the A9 the same image quality that the a7rii has and that is the biggest problem. If they could make an A9r it would be a killer camera.

@PB_PM I don't mind Nikon being focused especially giving us great products like the D5/D500/D850. But what I would like is for them to continue that focus. Give us a mirrorless D5M, D500M and D850M. Introducing a new mount and stealing tons of resources from the F-mount DSLRs to work on it is not really what I would like to see Nikon focus their future energies on. Perhaps you disagree and would like Nikon to abandon F mount development. To me it seems foolish to do that now that they have some momentum going.