Nikon Forum Members = Average Photographers

ThomasHorton

but generally a qualified judge should know what he is talking about.

This brings up another interesting question: What exactly qualifies a person to be an artistic judge? A history of winning artistic competitions perhaps? A college degree?

Or is it like how Mark Twain when he defines an expert as an "ordinary guy from the next town"?

JonMcGuffin

but generally a qualified judge should know what he is talking about.

This brings up another interesting question: What exactly qualifies a person to be an artistic judge? A history of winning artistic competitions perhaps? A college degree?

Or is it like how Mark Twain when he defines an expert as an "ordinary guy from the next town"?

I thought the same thing when I read this. Who can really judge art? I mean, this isn't a new question or debate and I don't think we'll be able to really answer it of course. We might as well go back to talking about FX vs DX .

Does it matter what anybody thinks? Does it matter what the masses think? Is there one person that matters? When VIPMediaStar said that the photographer he was assisting told him he had a bunch of "snapshots" it hurt him a bit. I've had the same thing happen to me. Why the hell would it hurt me if my art is my art and it doesn't matter what other people think?

I guess one would really have to get to the bottom of why they want or care to be a photographer in the first place to maybe give them a hand to understand what matters to them.

For me, what others think ends up being a pretty damn big deal. Maybe it's just an ego stroke thing, maybe it's a vulnerability thing but if people like my photos it makes me feel great, if they don't like 'em it bothers me. I can't really get around it though I've been able to temper the ups and downs quite a bit. If somebody is paying me for a photograph, I'd rather them like it and I make less than them be "eh.. ok.." and pay me more. It's worth more than money to have somebody like my pics... But I also understand not everybody is going to like 'em and I'm cool with that too. Maybe I'm in it for the wrong reasons then.. I dunno...

spraynpray

I guess one would really have to get to the bottom of why they want or care to be a photographer in the first place to maybe give them a hand to understand what matters to them.

For me, what others think ends up being a pretty damn big deal. Maybe it's just an ego stroke thing, maybe it's a vulnerability thing but if people like my photos it makes me feel great, if they don't like 'em it bothers me. I can't really get around it though I've been able to temper the ups and downs quite a bit. If somebody is paying me for a photograph, I'd rather them like it and I make less than them be "eh.. ok.." and pay me more. It's worth more than money to have somebody like my pics... But I also understand not everybody is going to like 'em and I'm cool with that too. Maybe I'm in it for the wrong reasons then.. I dunno...

Maybe the real problem is when you think an image is great, but judges think it is not. I would say open your mind to work out why and then get over it personally.

JonMcGuffin

@Spraynpray

Am I the only one then who delivers pictures only to find that the ones I think are lame people love and often times the ones I love people could care less about?

heartyfisher

I do participate in competitions sometimes and go and watch some .. some of teh comments are useful because at times when you crate a picture you have a niggly feeling you have missed something or should have done something .. and a better artist or technical person can give you pointers. and you say "ahhh that was it I had a feeling I should have done something to such and such etc.. " we are all learning after all.. art is never really quite finished .. and neither is the artist. thus I really dont see the value in competitions other than to get feedback and critique which becomes a learning exercise ...

spraynpray

@Spraynpray

Am I the only one then who delivers pictures only to find that the ones I think are lame people love and often times the ones I love people could care less about?

HAH! No. I wish!

Vipmediastar_JZ

@Spraynpray

Am I the only one then who delivers pictures only to find that the ones I think are lame people love and often times the ones I love people could care less about?

Happens to me as well.

In the past I had relatives say my work sucks, my own siblings saying their friends work is better. It only inspired me to progress.

Pro photographer I'm assisting said I had snapshots. Then he told me why the photos didn't make sense and proceeded to show me some better composition photos and how I made a model look fat with my composition.

That critique hurt because I thought I was past my average skilss but that experience opened up my eyes so it was a good kind of hurt.

Yet for my relatives or siblings that have no skill or have nothing to show for themselves I don't value their opinion, it hurts that my own family is not supportive yet praise the crooked horizon over saturated protrait with blown highlights. Literally if that photo had a screenshot of LR the whites would all be red and yet they adore that photo.

I value my mentors work and opinion. It took me years to find a willing photographer to take me on under their wing.
When I upload to FB i usually get low likes, instragram low likes, flickr very low likes and here on average +4. I value does +4 here because at least here we have a higher/skillset of photographers that are technical or artistic and what not.

The rest of social media i see it as a poluarity contest.

Point to that I recently saw a popular photographer diss out a kit camera photographer and proceed to say how his MF gear and expensive flash gear would over do their kit glass. Yet his finished product made my photos look way superior to his (words from my mentor).

PB_PM

This brings up another interesting question: What exactly qualifies a person to be an artistic judge? A history of winning artistic competitions perhaps? A college degree?

Depends on the organization. I know that CAPA in Canada (Canadian Association of Photographic Art) has set standards for judges in their national and regional competitions. Each judge must take and pass a course on how to judge images, and how to make constructive comment on them.

PB_PM

@Spraynpray

Am I the only one then who delivers pictures only to find that the ones I think are lame people love and often times the ones I love people could care less about?

Nope. I've shot a few public events before, and I thought most of the images were utter garbage. The people I made the images for loved them all. Go figure.

spraynpray

This brings up another interesting question: What exactly qualifies a person to be an artistic judge? A history of winning artistic competitions perhaps? A college degree?

Depends on the organization. I know that CAPA in Canada (Canadian Association of Photographic Art) has set standards for judges in their national and regional competitions. Each judge must take and pass a course on how to judge images, and how to make constructive comment on them.

Same in the UK of course. Not just any Joe can call themselves a judge, they have to qualify.

WestEndFoto

@Spraynpray

Am I the only one then who delivers pictures only to find that the ones I think are lame people love and often times the ones I love people could care less about?

Nope. I've shot a few public events before, and I thought most of the images were utter garbage. The people I made the images for loved them all. Go figure.

I think that this is pretty easy to understand if you understand your market and understand that event photography is inherently a social endeavor.

The market for event photography connects with an image based on an emotion, memory or relationship. This has nothing to do with the technical or artistic merit of an image. I am not saying that artistic merit will not be appreciated when it is achieved. But it is not the first priority of event photography and if it is, then the photographer will not deliver what their customer wants - which is essentially an emotion. Art cannot get in the way of this emotion.

An event photographer is not an artist, but a documenter and "deliverer of social benefits" (Not sure what the appropriate term is, but that is what they do). Perhaps this view is a little extreme and there is an argument that event photography is an art, but please suspend belief and consider my point.

This also extends to most people, even with DSLRs. They are not trying to be artists. It is a mistake to judge these people based on their artistic merits. The only qualified judges are their friends and family.

I have extended this thinking in how I have set up my two portfolios.

Part of me wants to be an artist. Whether I am succeeding or not is debatable, but here is my effort:
https://www.flickr.com/people/westendfoto/

And another part of me wants to give something back to my friends and family. Only they know if I am successful. This is an early effort, but my wedding pictures are in it and the most recent 20 or so are pictures that I have posted with this thinking in mind. I have removed all "model shots" that are not friends and family:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeff_pj/

PB_PM

I totally agree that event shooting is a whole different ball game. Generally what I do at events is make sure I hit the highlights of the event and throw in a few artistic shots of objects that people will identify with the event. Works for each event, without fail. All the paid shoots I've done have been events, and I always get positive feedback so I'll just run with it.

JonMcGuffin

Same in the UK of course. Not just any Joe can call themselves a judge, they have to qualify.

I find this a little ironic. We admit art can't really be "judged" and pontificate on how it's the great equalizer in society, that art has meaning and appeal and ability across all classes of people, etc, etc and then we proceed to create tests to "quality" a person as a judge so that they may judge well... judge art... lol

I'm not saying I disagree with the practice... I'm just saying it's ironic and a little hypocritical

JonMcGuffin

@WestEndPhoto - Thanks for sharing the flickr sites!

Beso

I will readily admit I have not read every post in this thread but the discussion has been wide ranging. The OP originally was referring to PAD photographers as average. I am here to take issue with that statement and here are the reasons why:
1. I have seen some stellar work from a number of those posting to this thread. It may be an occasional PAD post or a rarity but many commenters have put up some very nice stuff.
2. I firmly believe many posters to PAD do so in the interest of sharing rather than simply promoting their very best work.
3. Most renowned photographers are not a lot different from many here. The main difference lies in opportunity and volume. They have the luxury of opportunity because that is frequently all they do. They often have staffs to handle all the less desirable work, logistics, and even processing of RAW images. Those that have these luxuries often shoot massive volumes of images.
4. Many good photographs are made exceptional by the skills of the processor. Even average photographs can be made very good with someone skilled in photographic software. With the best we never really know how much was "as seen and photographed" and how much was created. On this forum I have seen average photographs made into really nice images with the skill of the person manipulating the image in software, and appreciate the candor of the person who shared the before and after images. Digital photography and image related software provide incredible flexibility for the end product.
5. Many posters to PAD use decent technical skills; some exceptional. That is not to say all the rules should be followed all of the time or any of the time for that matter. Artistry can be, and frequently is, unique to an individual. Technical skills do not guarantee a good image as we all well know. Conversely, less than good technical skills does not preclude an outstanding image.
6. We often tend to measure our own skills by others' opinions but what is really important to any artist is producing a result that the artist finds pleasing. Not everyone has to agree on what makes an image above average.
7. Well known photographers considered far beyond average in their field often have a marketing machine behind them, or an excellent facility for self-promotion. Perception is reality and promotion can be persuasive in elevating someone's work. Generally those that post to PAD are not looking to promote themselves, but genuinely enjoy sharing their work and enjoying the work of others.

IMHO the images posted to PAD have generally and steadily improved over time with many far above average. A number of you whose work I am familiar with have shown continuous growth and development. I don't see a lot of difference between venues such as NikonRumors, 500px, Flickr, Ipernity, etc. There are snapshots and there are photographs, and they range from unappealing to exceptional. That is simply the nature of the beast. I am glad that people are not shy about sharing their images, and are not overly concerned that a PAD posting may not measure up so someone else's standards. And I simply disagree that those that post to PAD are just average photographers.

sevencrossing

@Spraynpray

Am I the only one then who delivers pictures only to find that the ones I think are lame people love and often times the ones I love people could care less about?

No when posting on FB I often find my least favorite, gets the most likes

But the fact we let our friends see our "lame" shots, indicates they were not that bad in the first place

heartyfisher

I kind of like the friendly photos too .. :-)

Rx4Photo

@Vipmediastar_JZ, I can tell that the words of your Pro mentor didn't rub you the right way. But take it and move on. The best thing you can do for yourself is keep shooting but try to expand your imagination a bit more. One of the best things you can do for yourself is whenever you have a little free time occasionally spend it in a Barnes & Noble bookstore - in the magazine section. Pick up fashion mags and see what photos are being published in those. View the angles from which they're being shot. Notice hand positions, poses and such. Pay attention to crops - and what's not cropped off. Notice lighting, etc. I'm no pro, but I can tell you that the least likely way that I will photograph someone creatively ... is with me standing straight up. I'm usually on my knees, stooping, laying flat on my belly. On many shoots I'm kind of a mess at the end. Often dirty - because I want something different. Even street shooting - I'll often stoop or sit and shoot from a lower angle to get a more interesting perspective.
Editing ... getting back to looking in those magazines ... notice how those published images are edited. Skin, hair, highlights, dodging & burning. The "kinda" big thing now is facial contouring with dodge and burn. Not overdoing it but creating more interest in the subject. Review the works of people like Peter Coulson and Dani Diamond to see how their final products turn out.
Just keep it and your wow factor will definitely elevate.

I've been out of town for a few days but don't really know where the whole thing on competitions started. I know I merely mentioned a monthly challenge - a way to get anyone who wanted to participate to think more creatively.

Here's a photo that I shot at the very end of a session a couple of years ago after the model (my co-worker's daughter) had just gotten into her VW convertible ready to leave. After all my work that day, this unplanned photo happens to be the mom's favorite shot of the entire day.

NSXTypeR

I can't say that I've read all the comments either, but for sure I can comment on my own work.

I will say that I share more than I need to on Flickr, and some of my work are normal snapshots. I don't know where I read it, but you can end up "liking" your own work too much for your own good. A good photographer knows how to curate their own work and cull the bad ones out.

That being said, I do photography for my own enjoyment, and I share it for others too. If others are enjoy my photos, then that's great.

That being said, with something as subjective as photography, it's hard to pin down any specific judging guidelines at all, as there are so many categories it's hard to narrow it down to anything at all, as many members have posted before.

spraynpray

That being said, with something as subjective as photography, it's hard to pin down any specific judging guidelines at all, as there are so many categories it's hard to narrow it down to anything at all, as many members have posted before.

I largely agree with your post NSX except the part above. Actually it is pretty easy to pin down specific points on which to judge images, but you have to know them. I strongly suggest people either do a judging course to learn, or enter competitions with feedback from the judges.

As you said though, you will do better if you can forget the hours in Photoshop or the effort to get the image or even what a nice time you had while you were there. The image has to stand on it's own.

ThomasHorton

Depends on the organization. I know that CAPA in Canada (Canadian Association of Photographic Art) has set standards for judges in their national and regional competitions. Each judge must take and pass a course on how to judge images, and how to make constructive comment on them.

That's a great start. As others have posted, "judging" "art" is difficult. One good first start is to have some sort of baseline education so that all the judges have the same background. Not perfect, but way better than just having some random "professional" photographer off the street giving their opinion. I wish we had something like that in my local club.

A few months ago, my local photography club had this one individual as one of their judges for their monthly competition. In reading the bio, it seemed like the primary qualification of this judge was that she ran a photography blog.....really? That gives her insight to judge the artistic quality of photographers? Well no, but it was probably the only person they could get. I think the officers of the local club are more interested in attracting "famous" names then quality speakers.

I have seen this happen even in non-photography areas too. Evidently, there is a subsection of people who consider blogging as actual experience that applies to a non-blogging industry.

Having a successful (aka popular) blog means only one thing-- you have experience in running a popular blog.
I guess I am too old for this world. LoL

My bottom line gripe is that unless the judges are carefully selected and have some sort of standardization/ethic/methodology, what you will end up with is truly a Mark Twainian "Average guy from the neighbouring town".

So I guess, my gripe is not about competitions, but how competitions are often run. In my opinion, a poorly run competition can do more harm to a photographer's mindset than simply not entering in the first place.

I welcome critiques of my work, but only from people I respect.

heartyfisher

... I dunno, the mother of the bride may not be an artist but she sure has an important opinion :-)

Vipmediastar_JZ

@Rx4Photo Some good advice there. I like Dani's work but I'm tending to going back to flash. His technique is no flash for his shots. I been working on the FS technique. It is time consuming but I enjoying how well a photo gets tranformed in the finished product.

To clarify it didn't rub me the wrong way. What actually happened made me realize that I still haven't improved I thought I did so the critique made realize I need to step it up. Maybe I felt dissapointed that I hadn't Impressed my Sensei.
A while back I did a architecture fashion shoot and my sensei was impressed with it. From impressed to not impressed was a let down for me but I didn't made me throw in the towel. It made me do some thinking.
I have another Architecture fashion shoot soon and hopefully I keep my flow going.

sevencrossing

... I dunno, the mother of the bride may not be an artist but she sure has an important opinion :-)

+1

If you are a professional eg someone is paying you, they are the only judge that matters

If you are taking a photograph is hang above the fireplace, the wife is the only judge that matters

And remember in both case the judge's decision is final

rmp

I guess I am very lucky. I do not sell my photos so those judges do not exist for me. Once, a few years back, my daughter was my "final judge" because I valued her artistic opinion the most. Then, when my wife was decorating our new home, she was my "final judge." After that my family members started requesting photos for their homes and they became the "final judge." Along the way my photo-club members became judges with opinions I valued. Today, I am my own "final judge". On a recent trip I took about 2000 pictures. 11 of those I judged as "4 star." All 11 have been requested for use as wall art by one family member of another. I am 73 years old. I started taking photos in 1959, and I am beginning to think I'm doing OK -- at last.