NIKON...MIRROR LESS NOW WITH FIRMWARE UPDATE

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  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    Well said Retread, as Thom said in that article PB_PM is quoting:

    But this number is extremely deceptive. One of the things I discovered in surveying tens of thousands of enthusiast digital camera users is that they upgrade bodies regularly. So consider someone who started with a Nikon D70, then upgraded to a D90, a D7100, and recently to a D7500 (that's an every-other generation upgrade). If they followed the attachment rate, they'd now have 6.4 lenses for their camera on average. What my surveys showed is that this isn't quite right. The on-going updater actually has an average of 8-10 lenses, which would imply an attachment rate of something closer to 2.

  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    edited April 2018
    PB_PM said:




    I honestly don't know why you thought/think Nikon would/will keep the F-mount in the transition to mirrorless, when literally every other DSLR maker has not continued forward with their legacy lens mounts. If Nikon does use a new mount, and they most likely will, you will have nobody to blame but yourself for making the assumption that Nikon would continue to use the F-mount. Nikon has never made a statement on the matter either way, so that's not Nikon betraying your investment, it is simply an assumption based on no facts.



    Nice gear by the way.

    But you seem to have lost some facts:

    Fact:
    The f-mount has been around since 1959. From AIS, introduced in 1977, moving forward, basically all of the lenses are compatible with today's cameras.

    Fact:
    Nikon even introduced a camera recently to take advantage of those pre-1973 pre-AIS lenses (the DF).

    Fact:
    Nikon is one of the only two SLR manufacturers that did not abandon the mount prior to the introduction of auto-focus. Yes, Pentax did the same with the K-mount.

    Fact:
    Despite Canon abandoning their mount upon the introduction of auto-focus to introduce a mount optimized for auto=focus, the best auto-focus that money can buy today is a Nikon D5 (Nikon D850 a close second) with a Nikkor lens. They have accomplished this with a mount that was introduced 28 years before Canon brought out a new mount optimized for auto-focus. Opinion: I suspect that their was something about the Canon mount in its day that made it inferior to Nikon for auto-focus purposes.

    Fact:
    Numerous Nikon reps have assured me that the f-mount will continue to be supported and/or never be abandoned. Nikon rep = Nikon.

    All of the above are "facts" that have convinced me to stay with the f-mount. Now to your point, Nikon has not signed a binding agreement, but their actions and the above "facts" are evidence. If you are a new consumer trying to decide which system to go with and your sole criteria is the likelihood that the mount will continue in the future, then Nikon is still your first choice, with Canon a close second.

    So yes, betrayal may be to strong a word, but those are the facts. If I can no longer use the f-mount, the replacement will not be Nikon no matter how good it is. Probably Canon.......

    But as I have said above, I am not really too worried about that. And if worse comes to worse, I can afford to make a change.
    Post edited by WestEndFoto on
  • Capt_SpauldingCapt_Spaulding Posts: 524Member
    retread said:

    1.2 lenses per body. You got me thinking. Eight bodies, 5 are film I no longer use but won't part with. I regularly use two and some times the third digital bodies. 26 lenses but use 7 on a regular basis.

    Better not let my wife figure this out!

    Your last comment reminds me of a remark a gun collector friend made one time. Something like, "When I die I really hope my wife doesn't sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them."

    I'm in the same boat as you. I have a Rollei 6x6 TLR, 3 Minolta MF 35mm bodies and about 8 lenses in the MC/MD mount. At present, I can't bring myself to part with them. If I did, the lot probably wouldn't return enough to make it worth the time. I may, someday, use one of them again, but I wouldn't wager that will happen. My kids will probably be sorting through them one of these days asking, "what on earth is this?"

    I have two DSLR bodies and 2.5 lenses for each of them. Of those, a couple see 80+% of the use. When I finally order the 200-500 that'll make it 3 per. Not what I'd call a serious collection. That said, I suspect people who hang out on gear oriented camera sites are probably atypical DSLR buyers.
  • rmprmp Posts: 541Member
    She already knows -- but she is afraid you will find out about her shoes. Oh, oh, I was talking about me. :smile:
    Robert M. Poston: D4, D810, V3, 14-24 F2.8, 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8, 80-400, 105 macro.
  • retreadretread Posts: 554Member
    @Capt_Spaulding

    Your last comment reminds me of a remark a gun collector friend made one time. Something like, "When I die I really hope my wife doesn't sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them."


    There are a few of them too! ;-)
  • HankBHankB Posts: 222Member


    So yes, betrayal may be to strong a word, but those are the facts. If I can no longer use the f-mount, the replacement will not be Nikon no matter how good it is. Probably Canon.......

    Three questions:
     1] Does "If I can no longer use the f-mount..." mean you would be willing to use the f-mount with an inexpensive, well designed adapter?

     2] Would you go Canon because Nikon would just now be abandoning an obsolete mount whereas Canon did the inevitable [moved to a technically less constraining, modern mount] back when it "betrayed" its customers several decades ago?   Or is there a different reason to switch to Canon?

     3] Would you jump ship before it becomes obvious that Nikon will no longer fully support its DSLR line [DSLR and mirrorless might coexist as separate Nikon lines]?
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    Hi Hank, I wouldn’t use an adapter. I didn’t spend $75k on Nikon gear to use an adapter.

    I would go to Canon because Canon has good lenses. Yeah, their photon detectors are not as good, but that is an ephemeral choice. Sony has decent photon detectors if you ignore the fact that you can’t take them in the rain. But their lenses are mediocre.

    Regarding timing on jumping ship, that would depend on the circumstances. For example, if Nikon did it in a way that was not obvious, I might jump ship early while I could maximize the recovery from my Nikon gear. I could even imagine a scenario where I buy another D850 for my current gear while I evolve to another line.

    One thing I have been thinking about is a Fuji/Phase One Combo. Assuming that there is no “betrayal” from Nikon, I have been hoping that Nikon would eventually come out with a medium format line, and I don’t means “medium format light” like Fuji and Hasselblad. Between 5 to 10 years from now, I will likely adopt the best medium format option on the market. My current Nikon gear, assuming that I am still using it, would be good light travel gear.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,122Member
    edited April 2018


    But you seem to have lost some facts...

    All facts which I'm well aware of, but it is a good recap for those who don't know some of the history of the industry.

    As we've discussed in the past, I'd be extremely happy if Nikon kept using the F-mount for the same reasons that you do. I just don't think it's very likely, unfortunately. Over the past 6 months there have been more rumors and patients related to a new mount for the new mirrorless cameras and some rather fancy looking new mount to F-mount adapters posted on the main blog here. So as much as I am in the same camp as you, I've simply come to the realization that it isn't going to happen.

    Canon has already shown that it will likely be dumping the EF mount in the mirrorless market, so don't expect loyally from them either.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    I hope that you are wrong......

    And yes, sometimes the audience is the general reader.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,337Member
    WestEndFoto: Just wondering . . . seems your use of the word betrayal for any adaptor is too strong . . . Isn't it a given that your existing lenses are not going to fit on a Nikon mirrorless body without an adaptor of some sort? Surely, Nikon will not produce a mirrorless body with an empty mirror box so at least a spacer adaptor with an f-mount on each end will be needed to use existing lenses. If that is true what is so different about a spacer adaptor with a Z mount on one end and an F-mount on the other end? If you want to keep using your lenses without an adaptor of any sort you are going to have to keep using traditional DSLRs or maybe a DSLR with a hybrid viewfinder but you cannot use lenses designed for a mirror box camera on a mirrorless camera without that mirror box and not use an adaptor to fill in that space.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    I don’t think that is a given. I predict that Nikon’s full frame mirrorless will be native f-mount and that they will have a smaller format with a new mount.

    Unfortunately, if Nikon does not remain committed to the f-mount, I predict that they will go out of business. Why would anybody buy expensive f-mount glass if they have to use an adapter? Even Sony users migrate off adapters as soon as their favourite lens is available in a native Sony mount.

    And if not the f-mount, this new mount with 6 or 7 lens choices? What a sick joke, and the joke will be on Nikon.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,337Member
    "I predict that Nikon’s full frame mirrorless will be native f-mount" Do you think it will have a mirror box of empty space with no mirror just to keep the flange to sensor distance the same? If so, wouldn't that be the first mirrorless body to do so? Maybe it would be a good idea in FX to keep full compatibility with the past lenses.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    edited April 2018
    Yes, I think that they will have empty space. Not ideal, but not that big a deal, especially if the alternative is to make their 60 or 70 f-mount lenses obsolete (and I say again, the 6 or 7 lenses that they can design and launch per year will look sad).

    If one wants small, then one can have a DX mirrorless line or something similar to what I have described above. If IQ is one’s main concern, then I can’t see how a 30mm empty space matters much.
    Post edited by WestEndFoto on
  • vtc2002vtc2002 Posts: 364Member
    @WestEndFoto I cannot agree with all of your facts as you have mixed facts with opinions. For example:
    Fact: Numerous Nikon reps have assured me that the f-mount will continue to be supported and/or never be abandoned. Nikon rep = Nikon.

    This is the opinion of the sales rep and not fact. Do you really believe that the Nikon Sales Rep has been told by Nikon that they will be keeping the F-mount forever and that Nikon is withholding that information from their customers? What on earth would Nikon possibly gain from this? I know two Nikon Sales Representatives and one Technical Service Representative personally (flew to Spain to visit me in the hospital after I was attacked) and I know for a fact that they would not make that comment and would be fired if word got back to Nikon Corporate office. He may have prefaced it with it is my opinion, but it is far from being fact. All you have to do is look at what happened to Amy Vitale (Nikon Ambassador) when she mistakenly posted on Instagram that she had taken photos with a D5S. It was posted on the main forum and she caught a lot of grief over a simple error, so much so that if you look at her Instagram site she no longer includes in her notes what camera she used to capture her images.

    “Fact: Despite Canon abandoning their mount upon the introduction of auto-focus to introduce a mount optimized for auto=focus, the best auto-focus that money can buy today is a Nikon D5 (Nikon D850 a close second) with a Nikkor lens. They have accomplished this with a mount that was introduced 28 years before Canon brought out a new mount optimized for auto-focus. Opinion: I suspect that their was something about the Canon mount in its day that made it inferior to Nikon for auto-focus purposes.”


    This is your opinion and not fact. Auto-focusing is far more complex to make such a broad statement. There are a few reviews such as Thom Hogan that you are paraphrasing that makes similar statement but then goes on to explain that Canon and Sony are very close and there is no reference to the D850 being a close second. This was back in 2017 and not updated to for the Sony A7. This pertains to one camera the D5 and despite reports that the D500 and D850 as having the same autofocusing system they do not function as well as the D5.

    “Fact: Nikon even introduced a camera recently to take advantage of those pre-1973 pre-AIS lenses (the DF).”

    Fact: With limitations:
    "Nikon retained the original Nikon FE's ability to flip-up the AI aperture coupling lever, so for a first for any unmodified Nikon DSLR, we can flip the lever out of the way and mount our original Nikon F Mount lenses all the way back to 1959!
    The only gotcha with unmodified Nikon F mount lenses that were made from 1959-1976 is that there is no way to couple the aperture into the camera; there is no original top-center feeler rod to couple manually to the lens' prong. With F mount lenses, you have to set the camera via the camera command dial to the same f/stop you set on your lens. More practically, I'll use stop-down metering (and AE lock if in AE) with F Mount lenses, exactly as we do with the Nikon FE." Ken Rockwell

    " the moment you mount a manual focus manual aperture lens (pre-AI, AI, AIs), the Shutter Priority Mode becomes completely useless, no matter what Shutter Speed you set it to – the camera will automatically set the shutter speed and will disregard the set value on the dial" Photography Life review of DF

    This website has some interesting information concerning the history of Nikon and Canon.
    medium.learningbyshipping.com/nikon-versus-canon-a-story-of-technology-change-45777098038c

    You have used the words "photon detector" to describe a camera on the main blog and was beat up for using that term and now you are using it here. I don't know if you are using it to elicit a response or what that naïve or what but it comes across as idiotic to make a statement like that for a camera(s) that Nikon spends millions of dollars researching and developing and that is critical for auto focusing (that you praise as fact), exposure metering, etc. "photon detector" sends the message that this person does not know what he is talking about. The camera is a complicated computer that does far more that detect photons.
  • vtc2002vtc2002 Posts: 364Member
    I am heavily invested in Nikon but do believe that the mirrorless camera will have a new mount. I am on the other side of the fence. I do not think Nikon will survive if they cripple the mirrorless camera to accommodate the f mount lens.

    24mm f/1.4G
    Sigma 35mm f/1.4 (Better focusing and IQ than Nikon)
    Sigma 85mm f/1.4 (Better focusing and IQ than Nikon)
    105mm f/1.4E
    105mm f/2.8G Micro
    200mm f/2
    300mm f/4E
    400mm f/2.8E
    500mm f/4E
    600mm f/4E
    14-24mm f/2.8G
    16-80mm f/2.8-4E
    24-70mm f/2.8G
    24-70mm f/2.8E
    70-200mm f/2.8E
    70-200mm f/2.8G
    200-400mm f/4G

    2 D850's with a third on order
    3 D810's
    1 D500
    1 D5
    1 D3500
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    VTC2002, I am explaining why I am adopting my position on whether to keep Nikon depending on what they do with the f-mount. The reader is free to draw whatever conclusions they want.

    However.....

    I also did not say that the statements of the Nikon reps are facts, merely that they said them, which is a fact. For all I know they are smoking dope, but it is a fact that they made those statements. Hmm.......unless you think I am a liar. If you think that, please go on record.

    Regarding Thom's opinion, if you can direct me to another reviewer that has tested both Nikon and Sony to the extent he has, particularly a 1.4 lens wide open, and is as demonstrably impartial as he is, I am happy (and intrigued) to listen. However, until that happens, I will accept it as a fact. However, let me stipulate that it is not fact and merely an opinion. However, the Sony is the only real candidate that creates an argument and I was talking about Nikon vs Canon. So I stand by my original statement when comparing Nikon's and Canon's mount history - which is despite Canon designing a whole new mount that is two decades younger than Nikon, Nikon still beats it in auto-focus (for now). So do you still have a point?

    When I use the term photon detector, I am making a point and expressing an opinion, namely that any advantage a camera manufacturer ekes out is temporary and will likely be exceeded by the competition in the next generation, unlike what in my view really counts in the long term, lenses. It is the results of those lenses that I am seeing in my images (gear wise) and if a D620 had the D850s sensor, you would never know what camera I was using. You are entitled to think that I am an idiot if you like, but I will not be stifling my opinions because I am ruffling feathers. As fabulous as the D850 is, I suspect that Canon and Sony (with reservations) will soon best it with a better photon detector. In the meantime, I will enjoy my lenses.

    And I make my point again, I believe and hope that Nikon comes out with a great mirrorless solution. But they better not let the f-mount flounder.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    vtc2002 said:

    I am heavily invested in Nikon but do believe that the mirrorless camera will have a new mount. I am on the other side of the fence. I do not think Nikon will survive if they cripple the mirrorless camera to accommodate the f mount lens.

    24mm f/1.4G
    Sigma 35mm f/1.4 (Better focusing and IQ than Nikon)
    Sigma 85mm f/1.4 (Better focusing and IQ than Nikon)
    105mm f/1.4E
    105mm f/2.8G Micro
    200mm f/2
    300mm f/4E
    400mm f/2.8E
    500mm f/4E
    600mm f/4E
    14-24mm f/2.8G
    16-80mm f/2.8-4E
    24-70mm f/2.8G
    24-70mm f/2.8E
    70-200mm f/2.8E
    70-200mm f/2.8G
    200-400mm f/4G

    2 D850's with a third on order
    3 D810's
    1 D500
    1 D5
    1 D3500

    Nice glass. What do you do with the long primes?
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    edited April 2018
    PB_PM said:


    Lets look at this closer, the F mount is the only thing Nikon has going for them. If Nikon drops the F mount I'm jumping ship faster than you can say Fuji. ;)

    So what this thread should really be called is, "The Death Of The F Mount".

    Has your view changed at all PB_PM?
    Post edited by WestEndFoto on
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,122Member
    edited April 2018
    Long term, most likely not, unless Fuji doesn't come up with some more telephoto glass. I refuse to use Sony, and I don't like how Canon RAW files handle some colours, so that leaves Fuji. I'll likely stick with DSLR's for the short term (2-5 years), regardless of the mirrorless shifting.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • BabaGanoushBabaGanoush Posts: 252Member
    "Between 5 to 10 years from now, I will likely adopt the best medium format option on the market. My current Nikon gear, assuming that I am still using it, would be good light travel gear."

    So, you are upset because you think Nikon may be abandoning you by going to a different mount, but you are considering abandoning Nikon full frame for a different format only 5-10 years down the road. Hmmmm. Maybe Nikon somehow knows your loyalty for the F mount will eventually come to an end and leave them locked into a mount you will no longer embrace. Is it so wrong, then, if they "do it to you" before you "do it to them"?
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,191Member
    edited April 2018

    "Between 5 to 10 years from now, I will likely adopt the best medium format option on the market. My current Nikon gear, assuming that I am still using it, would be good light travel gear."

    So, you are upset because you think Nikon may be abandoning you by going to a different mount, but you are considering abandoning Nikon full frame for a different format only 5-10 years down the road. Hmmmm. Maybe Nikon somehow knows your loyalty for the F mount will eventually come to an end and leave them locked into a mount you will no longer embrace. Is it so wrong, then, if they "do it to you" before you "do it to them"?

    No, because they will make lots of money selling me good light travel gear if they don't let the f-mount flounder. I would only see myself using medium format for the most demanding IQ applications.

    And besides, if Nikon produced medium format, they would be one of my top choices.
    Post edited by WestEndFoto on
  • snakebunksnakebunk Posts: 889Member
    edited April 2018
    @WestEndFoto: Thanks for having your own opinions, it keeps the discussion alive and interesting. And now when I know what you mean by photon detectors I understand you a little better (I thought you were referring to sensors). I think you should also add to your history book that Nikon abandoned the Nikon 1 mount recently, without any excuse or alternative.

    I think Nikon can convert current E lenses to a new full frame mount pretty fast, and they probably already have some interesting new ones ready (like long 5.6 aperture pf lenses), and hopefully the third parties will be quick to respond. So it doesn't have to take a long time until a new mount has a good set of lenses available.

    My dream scenario is that Nikon goes for medium format light, like Fujifilm and Hasselblad. For me a slightly larger sensor would be the best way to use the space of not having a mirror. In short I like the strategy of Fujifilm. But I don't expect Nikon to take this route.
    Post edited by snakebunk on
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,337Member
    WEF: Well the conventional wisdom is that no mirrorless body will be built with an empty unneeded mirror box. However, it would make no difference to me. If Nikon made an FX mirrorless body with an F-mount and an empty mirror box I would happily buy one and happily use all my existing FX lenses. If Nikon also made a new Z mount DX mirrorless without a mirror box and a few new general purpose lenses I would also happily buy one with something like a DX 16-80 lens and a DX portrait prime lens. That is all I use DX for. In fact, I would prefer your proposed approach. That empty mirror box on a FX mirrorless body would be of no concern to me. I don't need a thin mirrorless body in FX since the lenses are still big anyway and the handgrip will protrude out the front about the same distance as a mirror box would. I see no real advantage to removing an empty mirror box on an FX body except in the case of lens design.
  • HikerHiker Posts: 197Member

    Hiker..did you use the tap in console with your 100-400 ? I abandoned mine and set it all to zero and then did the FFA in the old way on a target at about 60 yards. You have two problems . 1/ how far away is infinity and 2/ the settings will work only on one body. The +6 I have seems to be fine.

    I haven't had the need to use the tap in console...yet! But I will be checking it out.
  • HikerHiker Posts: 197Member
    snakebunk said:

    Current Sigma lenses work nice with Nikon according to my experience. I have never had any real problem but af has improved on both lenses and cameras. I expect af to be more stable with mirrorless cameras.

    Some have no issues, many seem to have issues. There are a couple of threads on Nikonians that since the latest firmware for Nikon cameras there are issues with Sigma and Tamron lenses not auto focusing. I am holding back on any firmware "upgrades" since my 7200 works just fine right now.
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