NIKON...MIRROR LESS NOW WITH FIRMWARE UPDATE

snakebunk

I understand the problem with light hitting the sensor at an angle. But the distance between the aperture and the sensor is not fixed but rather part of the lens design. For example if Nikon decides to convert all E lenses to a new mirrorless mount they would just have to put a little bit of extra distance between the lense and the mount, and the angle of the light hitting the sensor would stay the same.

PB_PM

It is unlikely they would convert existing lenses like that, just to work with shorter flange distance. To be practical it would require a new optical design and lens body, the question is do they design the lenses for today’s common technology or for what is coming down the line soonish? Sony and a few other sensor makers are testing curved sensors, which in theory should mitigate the problem. With that being the case software fixes seem the most practical for the time being.

snakebunk

@PB_PM: Maybe you are right, I think you know Nikon better than I do. But I wanted to point out that the making of shorter lense/camera combinations is a possibility rather than a consequence of a shorter flange distance. Sigma has introduced Sony E mount support for a lot of the Art lenses and they didn't change the optical design.

HankB

I was joking when I used the word "snarky". I guess that’s what emojis are for (but I can’t handle the cuteness). Sorry if I caused confusion.

Certainly, Nikon & Canon will continue DSLRs for some years after introducing pro mirrorless. But will that dilute R&D money? Will that dilute top engineer focus?

HankB

Does geometric distortion, or any other aberration that is so easily compensated for, matter at all in digital photography. Minimizing optical aberrations is an expensive game of tradeoffs in design. Why not let digital processing handle what it does well and optimize lens design on the remaining aberrations?

And vignetting may also fall in this category considering that edge IQ is expected to be somewhat less than center IQ

Hiker

For those interested Tony Northrup has a new video on Youtube called Canon and Nikon Mirrorless Camera Predictions. Interesting and informative.

Pistnbroke

What tony says is interesting ?? Accurate ??

donaldejose

To me the most interesting part is his opinion that neither Nikon or Canon mirrorless bodies will dethrone their professional DSLRs. Tony predicts pros will still be using traditional DSLRs for about 5 more years. He also feels Nikon will introduce a new mount but an adaptor will easily make F-mount lenses as fully compatible as possible given the limitation of the lens itself. He is predicting a price point of about $2,000.00 and the Sony A7III as their target feature set. Think more like a D750 than like a D850. As far as accuracy is concerned Tony is a very logical, not emotional, guy. His opinions are drive by reason. Thom Hogan has predicted Nikon's first mirrorless bodies would be DX sensors and sell at a lower price point. I will predict Nikon would like to offer two mirrorless bodies, one around $1,000.00 in DX and one around $2,000.00 in FX. "Would like to" doesn't mean they will be able to though.

Hiker

Pistnbroke said:

What tony says is interesting ?? Accurate ??

Not really sure. It's all speculation right now what Canon and Nikon are doing. In the video he says this is what Nikon and Canon NEED to do to be competitive in mirrorless. And he did say that Sony just blew everyone away with a $2,000 full frame mirrorless camera with 693 focus points and 425 phase detection points with a 93% coverage and 10 fps for the price.

But in response to Donaldjose above, I hope for the sake of Nikon or Canon you are correct. But knowing what they have done, or better yet NOT done in the past, I'm not holding my breath. But you never know. I just thought Tony came across just like you said. Sometimes he's spot on like in this video. Nikon needs to do better than the A7 iii to make a foothold.

donaldejose

If Nikon can just equal the A7III in their first effort they will be ok because there will be no reason to switch.

Searcy

I've been looking at the Sony A7III pretty hard lately. I'm going to wait till the end of the year before I buy to see what Nikon offers but...

donaldejose

I think Chelsea is using an A7III now.

rmp

I need want the Nikon mirror-less before Christmas. Come on Nikon!

donaldejose

Sometime during the second half of this year. Nikon wants to make those Christmas sales.

Hiker

Searcy said:

I've been looking at the Sony A7III pretty hard lately. I'm going to wait till the end of the year before I buy to see what Nikon offers but...

Yeah, me as well. And I too will be waiting until around Xmas. Sony usually offers a trade value on a camera if I'm not mistaken. And again, I highly recommend watching Tony's video. And here is my issue. Say Nikon does come out with a mirrorless camera (doubt very much it will be anything near the new A7 iii, but who knows, right?!), I have all 3rd party lenses. If I had invested in Nikon FX glass then as the rumor has it, we should be able to use Nikon FX glass on the new camera. This is another reason to switch for me. Sell my 3rd party lenses and go with Sony. It's not about the 10fps, it's about the focusing and the full frame camera for $2,000. Change soon and buy one lens for most of my needs. Mainly the Sony 24-105 f4. I have a Tokina 11-20 f2.8, Sigma 17-50 f2.8, Sigma 24-105 f4 (my new go to lens for landscapes), and a Tamron 100-400 f4.5-6.3. The Sony will replace 3 DX lenses. Sigh....GAS is so much fun!!!

Pistnbroke

Friend just bought a Sony A7 R 11 (two) for £1400 and is very pleased but he likes to play with dumb adaptors etc...
Tony is interesting but more so with Chelsea at his side. Not so interesting as Matt Granger with his "lady friend"
Who knows but if we could break the 24 mp DX and go up to 30+ I would be interested for birding.

snakebunk

What Tony says sounds mostly reasonable. But I don't understand how Nikon could continue to sell DSLRs once they anounce a new mount. Don't you think the interest for new F mount products will be zero when there is a another new mount? I am not sure how others think but I already don't buy new F mount stuff until I know what will happen.

Hiker

Chelsea was in the review of the A7 iii when they were in Vegas and the A7R iii in Sedona. Everything everyone says about a Nikon or Canon mirrorless camera at this point is just speculation. Nikon will continue with DSLR's because, like Tony said, that's their bread and butter right now and you have your die hards that will stick to DSLR's. UNLESS they are going to shock the world and come out with something spectacular that will blow everyone away. But to shock everyone, they need to be as good as or better than what Sony is offering at this moment. And history is not in favor of Nikon!!

HankB

Factor into all this speculation, that Tony agrees with what many of us have been saying. An adapter for F-mount lenses onto a new Nikon mirrorless mount is just a simple, almost seamless, inexpensive extension tube [especially inexpensive for E lenses].

He did though imply that 3rd party F-mount lenses may not focus as reliably as Nikons since the cameras' firmware would be designed to accommodate some or most or all relevant Nikon lenses.

Hiker

HankB said:

Factor into all this speculation, that Tony agrees with what many of us have been saying. An adapter for F-mount lenses onto a new Nikon mirrorless mount is just a simple, almost seamless, inexpensive extension tube [especially inexpensive for E lenses].

He did though imply that 3rd party F-mount lenses may not focus as reliably as Nikons since the cameras' firmware would be designed to accommodate some or most or all relevant Nikon lenses.

Which basically says Nikon still doesn't play nice with other companies. Many a review mentions Canon lens adaptors for Sony. But nothing with Nikon, if memory serves. I could be wrong on that point. I just got done reading DXO marks review of the Sony A7 iii. A 96 score is pretty impressive. The Nikon D850, and the Sony A7Riii both received a 100 score. And considering that the A7 iii is $1,200 less for body alone is another impressive point imho...

PB_PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is no reason for Nikon to help third party lens makers. Why should they, when they have lenses to cover most of what people need. Those that need something else have very specific use cases that Nikon has chosen not to address.

It's not like Canon, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax or Sony are working to help third party lenses work on their systems, because like for Nikon, that is lost revenue. Some might say Olympus and Panasonic are, but the fact that some lenses for m4/3s work better on one brand than the other says otherwise.

Just as there are working adapters for Canon lenses on Sony, there are for Nikon lenses to work with as well, but few companies have invested, since there is a much larger Canon lens user base. Keep in mind all those adapters are third party, none of them are made by an OEM camera maker.

HankB

Hiker said:

Which basically says Nikon still doesn't play nice with other companies. Many a review mentions Canon lens adaptors for Sony. But nothing with Nikon, if memory serves. I could be wrong on that point...

If you are right, it certainly makes sense because Nikon's ancient f-mount has so few lenses with electronic aperture. So Sony body to Nikon lens adapters need their own internal aperture actuators. These are not needed for any Canon lenses since they are all electronic.

Apart from the lens mount mechanics, if I am correct, Nikon may actually make it easier for 3rd party lens manufacturers than does Canon. Please someone correct me here if I am wrong. Because Nikon keeps its "Distortion Control Data" file onboard in the camera bodies, a 3rd party lens maker has a fighting chance of electronically mimicking a Nikon lens thus fooling the Nikon body to make proper corrections for JPEGs. Again, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Canon uses some other system which makes it harder or impossible for 3rd party lenses to have the camera compensate for lens aberrations.

PB_PM said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is no reason for Nikon to help third party lens makers. Why should they, when they have lenses to cover most of what people need. Those that need something else have very specific use cases that Nikon has chosen not to address...

Manufactures of ANYTHING will only help 3rd party competing equipment when it clearly helps themselves in the market place. Typically, that happens when a given manufacturer is trying to grow from a very small market share. An extreme example of not helping to the point of being overtly obstructive is printer manufacturers blocking 3rd party ink cartridges with proprietary "chips" in the replacement cartridges.

WestEndFoto

HankB said:

Factor into all this speculation, that Tony agrees with what many of us have been saying. An adapter for F-mount lenses onto a new Nikon mirrorless mount is just a simple, almost seamless, inexpensive extension tube [especially inexpensive for E lenses].

He did though imply that 3rd party F-mount lenses may not focus as reliably as Nikons since the cameras' firmware would be designed to accommodate some or most or all relevant Nikon lenses.

I think that this is speculation, not fact. Only Nikon is likely to know how true this is. Remember, that they have likely spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, perhaps millions, researching this point. How much has Tony spent?

BabaGanoush

"they have lenses to cover most of what people need"

But not all of Nikon's lenses are great. In fact, many of them are just mediocre and a few of them are junk.

Nikon not making nice with third-party lens companies is like Microsoft or Apple making it difficult or impossible for third-party software companies to create software for PCs or Macs. Would anyone tolerate that? Of course not. If Nikon thinks it offers the best optics, then it has nothing to worry about from third-party lens makers. So, given their attitude, maybe they know they don't always offer the best, but don't care if it hurts their customers (or soon to be ex-customers).

PB_PM

Why should they hand out their priority auto focus/VR/data firmware to third parties? Did those third parties financially help Nikon develop it? I doubt it. Those same third parties could give/sell it to a competitor (Canon/Sony etc), and that could hurt Nikon. Sure those competitors likely reverse engineer each others stuff, but why make it easy for them?

If lens/AF/data transmission was like an OS it would be very different. All the third party makers have full and free access to the F-mount (no longer protected by patients) which is basically the OS of the camera for a lens. Beyond that, third parties are on their own, just as a software developer is. Apple/MS don't make every part of OS/apps and give them away for free (Macs you pay for it in the hardware and MS upfront with a new machine or upgrade discs), so why should Nikon give out handouts?