Transition from F to Z (TFFTZ)

snakebunk

Yes, you have the latest 800/5.6.

My point was that Nikon is slightly falling behind because they don't yet have a 400/2.8 or 600/4 to match the latest designs from Canon and Sony which are about 1 kg lighter. The 800/5.6 has nothing to do with it.

WestEndFoto

snakebunk said:

Yes, you have the latest 800/5.6.

My point was that Nikon is slightly falling behind because they don't yet have a 400/2.8 or 600/4 to match the latest designs from Canon and Sony which are about 1 kg lighter. The 800/5.6 has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, but Sony is behind Nikon on most of the Z lens equivalents. Their 24-70 2.8 in my mind is equivalent to a 24-70 2.8G - not even my E - for example let alone the new S. Nikon has the best 70-200 2.8E on the market.

It will always be possible to find something someone is slightly ahead in. I am certainly willing to acknowledge that their 400 2.8 might be a shade "better" than my 400 2.8E - but it had to be as Sony needed to establish credibility in this space. I would not be surprised if they over engineered it and are selling it at a loss - and it still suffers from a fatal flaw - it does not bolt onto the best auto-focus money can buy - a D5, D850 and soon to be D6.

So they are ahead in some things, behind in others, each of them leapfrog each other. I would not attempt to use this as justification for saying that "one is falling behind".

mhedges

Here I thought with the PF lenses Nikon had an advantage in telephoto primes.

WestEndFoto

Well MHedges, Nikon has went from having the second most difficult mount to design around (the current Sony is arguably the most difficult) to the easiest. That is a very significant advantage.

They have also avoided the “first mover disadvantage” which allows them to avoid the mistakes of the first mover. There are advantages to being the first mover, but those relate to your ability to create barriers to entry for competitors. Those are significant if you are LinkedIn or Facebook. But this is very week in the camera business (which arguably is not a “tech” business) especially if your competitors are already in the business.

As it stands now, if I was a “strategy consultant”, I would consider the Nikon file the easiest file in the industry.

manhattanboy

@mhedges Thom in his article does not compare the hit rate he got with his Z's to a Nikon DSLR, only at the end makes a comment about Sony. My point is that he wrote that article as a propaganda piece, on purpose I suppose, but it lowers his credibility complaining about fanboys when he himself is acting like one

It would have been much more useful if he did compare it to a D850 as well. I can pick out a bunch of photos that are spectacular from when I went on shooting events with only my Z camera as well (which I did a long time ago similar to what Thom just did this past August). My experience is that it's nowhere near as reliable as a Nikon DSLR for autofocus. I had a ton of just missed shots, where the focus was slightly off. I do more spray n pray with the Z now then I would otherwise as many look great from the viewfinder but blown up to 100% on a computer are a miss.

WestEndFoto

Which article are you talking about Manhattanboy?

mhedges

WestEndFoto said:

Well MHedges, Nikon has went from having the second most difficult mount to design around (the current Sony is arguably the most difficult) to the easiest. That is a very significant advantage.



They have also avoided the “first mover disadvantage” which allows them to avoid the mistakes of the first mover. There are advantages to being the first mover, but those relate to your ability to create barriers to entry for competitors. Those are significant if you are LinkedIn or Facebook. But this is very week in the camera business (which arguably is not a “tech” business) especially if your competitors are already in the business.



As it stands now, if I was a “strategy consultant”, I would consider the Nikon file the easiest file in the industry.

True. And there's lots of examples of first mover disadvantage even in tech. Look at Myspace. Or Yahoo, to an extent.

manhattanboy said:

@mhedges Thom in his article does not compare the hit rate he got with his Z's to a Nikon DSLR, only at the end makes a comment about Sony. My point is that he wrote that article as a propaganda piece, on purpose I suppose, but it lowers his credibility complaining about fanboys when he himself is acting like one



It would have been much more useful if he did compare it to a D850 as well. I can pick out a bunch of photos that are spectacular from when I went on shooting events with only my Z camera as well (which I did a long time ago similar to what Thom just did this past August). My experience is that it's nowhere near as reliable as a Nikon DSLR for autofocus. I had a ton of just missed shots, where the focus was slightly off. I do more spray n pray with the Z now then I would otherwise as many look great from the viewfinder but blown up to 100% on a computer are a miss.

Yeah I can see what you are saying. It's not really possible to do a true, scientific blind test though, because it's obvious what camera you are using. Meaning that one could easily distort the results even subconsciously.

Personally I'm finding that I am getting a bit better with handling the Z AF. But I only have a Z6 - I'm guessing Z7 is trickier. And as I've said before I have never used any of the newer DSLR's with the really great AF performance.

PB_PM

mhedges said:

Here I thought with the PF lenses Nikon had an advantage in telephoto primes.

Since there are only two PF lenses (300mm F4 and 500mm F5.6), they still have a long way to go.

manhattanboy

mhedges said:

Personally I'm finding that I am getting a bit better with handling the Z AF. But I only have a Z6 - I'm guessing Z7 is trickier. And as I've said before I have never used any of the newer DSLR's with the really great AF performance.

All the Youtube "experts" who have handled both the Z7 and Z6 universally say the Z6 has slightly better AF. Thus it's probable that your AF experience feels better than mine. The other issue is that with many more pixels when viewed at 100% the AF for Z7 needs to be even more accurate to better match the sensor's resolving ability.

My experience suggests the most accurate AF mode in the Z7 is the auto mode, where it can use all the computational power to do things like eyeAF, etc. Unfortunately, that mode is the least useful for being able to shoot action, especially at a distance. Hence, I've tried and largely given up using the Z7 for those situations. Could I do it? Yes. But why do it when its orders of magnitude easier to use something else.

snakebunk

WestEndFoto said:

So they are ahead in some things, behind in others, each of them leapfrog each other. I would not attempt to use this as justification for saying that "one is falling behind".

Yes, I agree. I was saying falling behind strictly in the context of long prime lenses. If you like short 1.8 prime lenses you would probably think that Nikon (Z mount) is way ahead of the compition.

To summarize, what I would like to see from Nikon, and what would make me more inclined to choose the Z mount when I transfer from F mount:
* updated 400/2.8 and 600/4 with similar weight as the competition
* updated 300/2.8 (still G version)
* 600/5.6 pf lens (pf is a great selling point for Nikon)
* new Z camera with improved auto focus (better than Sony A9) and large, rugged body
* at least one long prime lens on the Z mount (it is important for me to see wildlife/sports commitment on the Z mount even though I can use F mount lenses with an adapter, and I don't like the idea of adapter and tele converter)
* Z mount support from third parties like Sigma and Tamron (I think it will be hard to survive in the long run as the only company supporting a mount)

I realize that all I write is strictly personal and has a strong wildlife photography bias. I want to express my personal opinions and I want to read other peoples personal opinions. I don't love or hate any camera company, I just want the best equipment for my needs. I am still happy with my D810 and my next camera will probably be a D850 (to improve af). Mirrorless is a number of years into the future for me.

Peace and have a nice day all of you .

Pistnbroke

Thom Hogans article did encourage me that Z7 was almost there but reading what you say its still a NO for the birds.My tamron 100-400 can be made Z compatible so I will wait.

manhattanboy

Well I have to stand corrected after I went back and re-read his article. Thom did indeed compare the Z cameras to DSLRs. In his own words:

"I've got a few sequences of images that illustrate where something is harder to get right on the Z's than on the DSLRs."

NSXTypeR

manhattanboy said:

Well I have to stand corrected after I went back and re-read his article. Thom did indeed compare the Z cameras to DSLRs. In his own words:



"I've got a few sequences of images that illustrate where something is harder to get right on the Z's than on the DSLRs."

I read that article too.

Direct quote- "Using a D850 would be a better idea. Nein. My shooting partner in the vehicle was using a pair of D850's. He got some shots I would have liked, I got some shots he would have liked. But it had nothing to do with which cameras we were using."

If you want the original article.

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2019-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2019-mirrorl/a-nikon-mirrorless-safari.html

Seems like it's about a wash for Thom Hogan. If you have 2 similarly skilled photographers on F-mount's best, your keeper rate is about the same when using a Z-mount camera.

Granted it's a very small sample size, but it's encouraging. Like it or not, the F-mount has only a limited amount of time left, and the only way out now is forward.

mhedges

snakebunk said:

* Z mount support from third parties like Sigma and Tamron (I think it will be hard to survive in the long run as the only company supporting a mount)

I'm really curious to see how the third party scene will unfold for Z mount. How much did Nikon change the protocols, and how much did they lock the new mount down? Also business wise when will the third parties think there is enough of a Z mount base to justify the investment?

You would think that if they had the mount figured out Tamron would at least put a Z version of their 28-75 out there, since that is one of the few third party lenses on the market that was actually designed for mirrorless (I thing most of Sigma and Tamron's E mount lenses are ported DSLR designs).

donaldejose

It is all going to get better and better in Nikon's mirrorless ecosystem as the years go by. If you don't transition from F to Z now likely the "missing pieces" you now lament will be here in a few more years. My personal transition is a Z6 for lower cost of entry and general use (where I simply don't need high megapixel files) and most of the lenses as they are released. The next step up in Z world will be an additional body when Nikon releases one with two card slots and vertical grip. My favorite ergonomics in Nikon world are the D4 body (seems to fit my hands perfectly and not as heavy as the earlier Dx bodies). The D500 body with attached vertical grip is second in comfort for me because it is a bit smaller and lighter than the D850 with vertical grip. I do not have large hands. Best "fit" is a personal preference depending upon hand size, finger length and tolerance for weight. I personally think Nikon should produce a mirrorless body with two card slots and built in vertical grip similar to the Dx bodies (and I do think it will come). Then they should produce it in two versions: a Z9 24mp version and a Z9x 60mp version. The Z8 name is reserved for a high megapixel body with removable vertical grip to fill the same place in the Z lineup the D850 fills in the DSLR lineup. They should give their Z9 body excess processing power beyond what is needed for the features at launch. Then free software updates with new or improved features should be released at least once a year. I hope to see an inexpensive DX version of Z, a 60 mp version of Z and even a top of the line integrated vertical grip Z body within a year.

tc88

I don't think Tom is sponsored by Nikon currently. Nikon probably doesn't care talking to him when he constantly laments the same stuff. However, it's possible he's trying to get into the good grace of Nikon again.

All I can say is that what he wrote on his Z AF experience is 2sigma away from what I have read or seen from others. BTW, that doesn't mean his writing is irrelevant. Just that it needs to be taken with some grain of salt for me.

manhattanboy

NSXTypeR said:

"Using a D850 would be a better idea. Nein. My shooting partner in the vehicle was using a pair of D850's. He got some shots I would have liked, I got some shots he would have liked. But it had nothing to do with which cameras we were using."

That's funny as I would have interpreted this differently...take a more skilled photographer in Thom and despite all of Thom's "knowledge", his lesser side kick came out equally well...that's a clear win for the D850's.

FreezeAction

donaldejose said:

It is all going to get better and better in Nikon's mirrorless ecosystem as the years go by. If you don't transition from F to Z now likely the "missing pieces" you now lament will be here in a few more years. My personal transition is a Z6 for lower cost of entry and general use (where I simply don't need high megapixel files) and most of the lenses as they are released. The next step up in Z world will be an additional body when Nikon releases one with two card slots and vertical grip. My favorite ergonomics in Nikon world are the D4 body (seems to fit my hands perfectly and not as heavy as the earlier Dx bodies). The D500 body with attached vertical grip is second in comfort for me because it is a bit smaller and lighter than the D850 with vertical grip. I do not have large hands. Best "fit" is a personal preference depending upon hand size, finger length and tolerance for weight. I personally think Nikon should produce a mirrorless body with two card slots and built in vertical grip similar to the Dx bodies (and I do think it will come). Then they should produce it in two versions: a Z9 24mp version and a Z9x 60mp version. The Z8 name is reserved for a high megapixel body with removable vertical grip to fill the same place in the Z lineup the D850 fills in the DSLR lineup. They should give their Z9 body excess processing power beyond what is needed for the features at launch. Then free software updates with new or improved features should be released at least once a year. I hope to see an inexpensive DX version of Z, a 60 mp version of Z and even a top of the line integrated vertical grip Z body within a year.

I think Spock would find this logical even if I'm impatient.

WestEndFoto

Anybody have any further views on the “transition”?

snakebunk

If I wanted to transition to z mount I would by a Z7 and use it with an adapter. None of my lenses are available for z mount so not much to think about.

Pistnbroke

Quote "I think Spock would find this logical even if I'm impatient."

A watched pot never boils though Data showed it did ( always 7min 24 sec) so there is hope .

donaldejose

Update. "I hope to see an inexpensive DX version of Z . . . " that one is here now and I have a Z50. It is quite good and easy to use all the other Z lenses on it. I would like to see two things added to the DX mirrorless ecosystem (one of which almost certainly will be in future releases): 1. A body with IBIS (Z70?). and 2. A zoom which lets me go from about 35mm FF equivalent to about 105mm FF equivalent at f2.0 or F2.8 if it is super sharp wile open (this is almost certainly a "pie in the sky" request as we are unlikely to get even a DX sized f2.8 standard zoom and I may have to be satisfied with carrying a 50mm f1.8 or f1.2 prime with my DX body for portraits to use with the slow normal kit lens zoom or I may have to go "old school" by carrying the yet to be released 28mm compact and the 40mm compact lenses, hoping the 40mm is an f2 rather than an f2.8, and just accept changing lenses more than I would like under less than ideal conditions). The 60 mm micro lens in the current roadmap may make a fine DX portrait lens if it is as least an f2.8 lens. Of course, I can use, and currently am using, the S 24-70 f2.8 zoom on the Z50 body and it works fine but it is "overkill" in size and weight for a DX body; it can be used, just far from ideal for carrying around. I have been trying the S 50mm f1.8 and the S 85mm f1.8 with the Z50 body and they both balance fine but I just would like more than 75mm and less than 127mm for portraits. I like the range of 85mm to 105mm FF and f2.0. Maybe Nikon should make a dedicated S "portrait zoom lens" with these specs someday? Basically, I need more IBIS for older shakier hands and I want the ability to do a decent portrait with some bokeh using a versatile zoom you can always keep on the body as your default normal zoom lens when traveling so you don't get dust on the sensor. While I wait for the higher end mirrorless DX and FX bodies I am building out my Z mount lenses as they become available. The next purchase will be the (larger than I would like) S 70-200 f2.8. Then, hopefully a more ideal two card slot with vertical grip Z8 or Z9 body later in 2020.

mhedges

Can I ask why you are so committed to the crop sensor format? Z6 prices are pretty low now. Seems like that's the way to go if you want IBIS and more bokeh.

Pistnbroke

An FX camera of less than 46MP is no good for birds POI

donaldejose

mhedges: I am not so committed to a crop sensor body. I have a Z6. I was Just thinking about a lightweight Z50 kit I can put in a belt pouch for ease of carry and still be able to shoot a portrait with bokeh. Wondering what lenses I would need to accomplish that since the kit lens is wonderfully compact but only goes to 50mm (75 in FF terms) and is only f6.3 at that setting. So what other mirror-less normal zoom do I need which will get me to 60mm (FX equivalent 90mm) and f2 or f2.8 at least. Such a lens doesn't currently exist. Will Nikon make one? It is not on the roadmap now and I don't think they ever will actually make one although Nikon may put out a better kit zoom lens to go with the Z70 body when that arrives. The 24-70 S FF f2.8 lens works but you lose the advantage of size and weight for a DX only lens. It just may be that there will be no way to have a Nikon DX mirror-less zoom lens which can give you f2 or f2.8 at around 100mm for a portrait with bokeh. Maybe Sigma will make one someday.
pistnbroke: The next Z body (Z8?) and then next D850 update may be around 60MP FX and therefor be good for birding when used in DX mode.