Why switch to "Z" system?

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Comments

  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 578Member
    edited February 24
    @donaldejose Exactly.

    I find it very striking that Nikon brings novelties with firmware now, the Nikon Z6 with the latest firmware 3.0 is a completely different camera than my first with firmware 1.0, forget all previous reviews.

    For a new camera I would definitely go for the mirrorless Z cameras, if the 70-200 mm f/2.8 S is available, which can happen any time now, then most of the standard lens spectrum (14mm-200mm) is already covered with HQ native lenses at the moment.
    Post edited by Ton14 on
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  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    "the Nikon Z6 with the latest firmware 3.0 is a completely different camera than the first with firmware 1.0." Others also find this true. It is wonderful to see Nikon offering such free software upgrades.



    youtube.com/watch?v=Y-pnrHx2jDc
  • tc88tc88 Posts: 477Member
    Where is the CFexpress firmware for DSLR? :smile:

    Nikon is updating Z firmware out of necessity because it clearly understands the Z cameras are behind and is doing what it can to reduce the gap. If it's ever in parity with other makers, Nikon's culture and history doesn't care about providing free enhancements and would rather you pay to buy a newer camera.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    "Nikon's culture and history doesn't care about providing free enhancements and would rather you pay to buy a newer camera." True, I am hoping that will change and the Z firmware upgrades are just the first of many for both DSLRs and Z bodies. We will see.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,221Member
    edited February 23
    I suspect Nikon will have to keep providing these kinds of free updates to survive in the current camera market. If they don't, they may find themselves in two situations, a) even more bleeding of the established user base, meaning losing people who are yet to, or are very hesitant to move to Z-mount cameras, and b) current Z-mount owners who might start thinking the grass is greener on one of the other sides.

    Nikon's biggest problem isn't really that the Z-mount cameras aren't any good, they are, but rather that the F-mount cameras people already have are more than good enough for what they are being used for. I for one found the Z-mount cameras I tested to be nice, but nothing about that made me think, 'boy I should dump my D750 & D810 + $10k+ worth of F-mount glass for this'.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    edited February 23
    What attracted me to mirrorless is the "what you see is what you get" electronic viewfinder (or back LCD) which works better than the DSLR liveview feature plus improved high ISO IQ because I found myself wanting to increasingly work with constant LED lighting instead of studio flash. I wanted to see if it really helped me when taking portraits with available light. Here are some examples.

    Z50, kit lens about 70mm equivalent and f6, ISO 1000, 1/50 sec shutter using constant LED lights.
    Z50_0838

    Z50, 50mm S line f1,8 at f1.8, ISO 100, 1/60th second at the same constant LED light level.
    Z50_0826

    Eyes cropped out of the above photo.
    Z50_0826_RembrandtStyleEyeCrop

    Z6 with the S line 35mm f1.8 shot at f1.8, ISO 640, 160th of a second. Gels over constant LED lights lit the background. The "what you see is what you get" of the Z6 was very helpful in establishing the correct lighting ratio before the shutter was released.
    don_0506_44741901150_o

    1. I found the ability to see your lighting before you shoot and eye AF worked much better than using liveview in DSLRs (perhaps excepting the D780 and D6). 2. At all reasonable enlargement sizes image quality will be fine from ISO 100 to ISO 1000 with very few people ever noticing a difference. 3. That S line 50mm lens is very sharp.

    I could take these types of photos with DSLRs and F mount glass.

    D600.
    don_6996b_pp_45683743554_o

    D500.
    _don4615pp_33663754561_o

    D750.
    DSC_5716

    D850.
    850_3939_8x10_45762081072_o

    D5100 and 35mm DX f1.8 lens shot at f2.
    DSC_3835a

    They all work and can be used to taken nice shots which will enlarge to reasonable sizes. I just find the mirrorless bodies easier to work with when using constant lighting because the EVF system makes even using the rear LCD screen better.
    Post edited by donaldejose on
  • DaveyJDaveyJ Posts: 958Member
    edited February 23
    Size, weight, and cost are all factors that the photo pros I know use to decide what cameras to use in the field. At an AMA or GNCC motorcycle race a photo Pro will have to himself or herself move locations by several miles. Having pro photos to sell to fans, racers, etc. is what they require. We have actually hired one photo pro to give racers and fans free photos from the ZMA and GNCC races on our property. Donalddejose has posted some of the most coherent uses and insight on the various Nikon’s available and he is one great reason to frequent NR to stay current on camera gear available now or several years from now! Nikon’s published road maps are not enough info for many of us!

    The numbers of people at these events, spectators and racers range from 15,000 to well over 45,000. Since the advent of the cell phone those photo sales to racers, and family, and fans have declined considerably. So when we hire a photo pro to give their images from a race on our track they would both satisfy a demand and make the same money, or perhaps more than selling to many buyers. A Formula One Race, or NFL, or event like that does not require the photo pro to move several miles during a two or three day event. That is precisely why the pros at these races are often using Nikon DSLR or Canon, and The D500 is often THE Camera of choice.

    The number of actual fans at MLB and NBA games has declined. Smaller stadiums will become even more popular. Why? These events are ideally suited to Television. The cost to go to these events for a family will often be quite a bit more than $500, often more than $1,000. Comments on this trend are becoming very common on the Internet. When photographers are paid by the major networks, cost and size becomes a smaller problem. Therefore the D850s and D4 and D5s and long lens, become routine in such events. But change the venue to tracks with far bigger race circuits, averaging somewhat more than 12 miles long, and make the pro photographers free lance, not teams of pros, and the Nikon Cameras used are more likely going to be Cameras like the D500.

    Every one of these photo pros have tried Z Mount cameras in a store. Few have bought in to the Z Mount cameras yet. The OVF has some real advantages. Add the large Z Mount opening during lens changes, and there is a greater need to have at least two cameras with different lenses so they don’t have to change lens. Dust and dirt are huge problems on these dirt track races. Are these events small town track events? Yes, and they are fast growing sports. Nikon can hardly afford to ignore upgrading the great D500. The current take on the D500? An absolutely essential camera. At least it has a fairly modern ExSpeed 5 processor. And two capture cards. And the lens available are excellent, and no need for a FTZ.

    Some of the same considerations apply to wildlife and bird photographers. The D500 is a very popular choice with these buyers. The D750 and D780 is a Nikon that I think will be a great seller. But as FF it does have some disadvantages. One is as a crop sensor mode camera, they have the lower MP sensor and therefore lose the advantage a D850 camera would have. My experience with the Z50and the two awesome kit lens says the Z Mount ML Nikon has size and weight advantages. And the images are great, and the video. But speed of handling, and eye detect is not one of the advantages. When the advanced Z80s or so become available that Z Mount advantage may force some of us to buy them as the S lens by all accounts are great.





    Post edited by DaveyJ on
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    It is good to have all sorts of people on Nikon Rumors doing all sorts of shooting with all sorts of different preferences. I know nothing about AMA or GNCC motorcycle racing so I have no idea what type of camera or lens works best there. In that field I defer to DaveyJ.
  • DaveyJDaveyJ Posts: 958Member
    edited February 24
    My next camera system will either be a Z6 and maybe the 24-200 or if a D500X camera long??? Tomorrow when I finally get some time to go out fishing from the shore of the Atlantic and photographing I’ll have the Z50 and the two kit lens. I also count myself very lucky to be able to see here some images of places I have never seen or will see!
    Post edited by DaveyJ on
  • Ton14Ton14 Posts: 578Member
    edited February 24
    The biggest factor to buy a camera with interchangable lenses was DX or FF for Pro RAW photographers. This is not the case anymore, for pro's it is FF and very, very fast WiFi connections to get the photo's by the editor in the office, 20mp cameras are enough for these tasks.

    I bought my D200 from the Pro Formule 1 photographer Peter van Egmond, this is his job since 1992 till now for "het Formule 1 blad" and also international magazines, he bought this DX camera for personal use, not for his work but hardly used it.

    On the big more days sport events (Olympics, Cycling, Tennis, Golf, Soccer etc.), Canon is the biggest player with the Canon EOS-1D X Mark II, then a very, very small amount with the Nikon D5. There are also some Sony and Panasonic. They have 3 or more sets with them, remote connected to get the important shot.

    On the big events Canon and Nikon has big rooms with many camera's, the big lenses and accessories available to use for the Pro sport photographers.

    The D500 is a very good camera for sport, but the trend for Pro's at the moment is the move and/or add video (not only in sport), transfered with fast WiFi, or Mobile Data transfer to the editors in 4K and snapshots from these videos are used for quick publications. This Pro world is changing fast.
    Post edited by Ton14 on
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  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    When watching professional sporting events on TV I have noticed Canon dominates. I would estimate I see 80% or more white big tele lenses. My understanding is this switch from Nikon to Canon happened back when AF lenses first came out because Canon produced AF telephoto lenses which focused much faster than Nikon's. Today Nikon has caught up in AF speed but people who have a big investment in Canon and years of experience with the Canon system are not quick to switch. Thus, Canon continues to lead the field in this area and seems to be expanding its field. I also see a lot of Canon's used for wedding and portrait photography. I don't know why. Some say it was because Canon has better skin tones, some say it was because of f1.2 glass such as the 50mm and 85mm f1.2 lenses, and some say it was the 5D in 2005 followed by 5D updates. Does anyone here know why Canon took over the wedding and portrait market?
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 1,573Member
    PB_PM said:



    Nikon's biggest problem isn't really that the Z-mount cameras aren't any good, they are, but rather that the F-mount cameras people already have are more than good enough for what they are being used for. I for one found the Z-mount cameras I tested to be nice, but nothing about that made me think, 'boy I should dump my D750 & D810 + $10k+ worth of F-mount glass for this'.

    I think this is it exactly. It is similar for Canon, although since their share is so much bigger maybe it isn't as much of a problem for them.

    Interestingly this hasn't been an issue with Sony up till now, because really its only with the third gen bodies that they have become competitive with or surpassed DLSR, at least for stills. They have made major improvements with each update so there was plenty of reason for buyers of rev 1 or rev 2 bodies to replace them. I think that will slow down some moving forward - both the pace of improvement and the number of folks replacing older bodies.

    For me, the timing worked out since I wanted to go to FF and couldn't see investing in F mount at the time so decided to go in on the Z's at launch. And the EVF does provide real advantages for urban exploration photography.
  • SearcySearcy Posts: 596Member
    mhedges said:

    PB_PM said:



    Nikon's biggest problem isn't really that the Z-mount cameras aren't any good, they are, but rather that the F-mount cameras people already have are more than good enough for what they are being used for. I for one found the Z-mount cameras I tested to be nice, but nothing about that made me think, 'boy I should dump my D750 & D810 + $10k+ worth of F-mount glass for this'.

    I think this is it exactly. It is similar for Canon, although since their share is so much bigger maybe it isn't as much of a problem for them.

    Interestingly this hasn't been an issue with Sony up till now, because really its only with the third gen bodies that they have become competitive with or surpassed DLSR, at least for stills. They have made major improvements with each update so there was plenty of reason for buyers of rev 1 or rev 2 bodies to replace them. I think that will slow down some moving forward - both the pace of improvement and the number of folks replacing older bodies.

    For me, the timing worked out since I wanted to go to FF and couldn't see investing in F mount at the time so decided to go in on the Z's at launch. And the EVF does provide real advantages for urban exploration photography.
    I agree. You and I have a very similar path to the Z6. I was ready to move from DX to full frame. I only had 4 F mount lenses. My decisions was, do I continue to invest in Nikon F mount system or do I switch to something else? I even came close to going with Sony.

    So now my "z collection" consists of the Z6 and two Z mount lenses, the 24-70 f2.8 and the 35mm 1.8 S . I understand that my choice to become an early adapter will come at a cost. I fully expect that in a few years the Z6 will look as dated at my old d3200 does now. But the Z mount glass I expect will hold up.



  • Bear_DaleBear_Dale Posts: 4Member
    I think the Z8 will be my first foray into mirrorless.
  • SearcySearcy Posts: 596Member
    edited February 26
    I'm looking forward to seeing the Z8. I really hope they resist releasing it before it's ready. Nikon needs to make a big splash with the Z8.
    Post edited by Searcy on
  • rmprmp Posts: 546Member
    I hope the Z8 auto-focus system is world leading -- and nothing less.
    Robert M. Poston: D4, D810, V3, 14-24 F2.8, 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8, 80-400, 105 macro.
  • Bear_DaleBear_Dale Posts: 4Member
    I wonder what the price will be.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,221Member
    mhedges said:


    Interestingly this hasn't been an issue with Sony up till now...

    It wasn't an issue for Sony because the bulk of their user base is made up of people who abandon other brands/mounts for them, because the brand was seen as innovative, while Canon and Nikon kept marching to the same old drum. Sony's DSLR's had a very small user base that they adopted when they bought Minolta, so they had nothing to lose by trying something else. It was typically people with money to burn, or bandwagon hoppers in the early period. From what I saw it tended to be the same people who every 3-5 years or so would switch between Nikon and Canon. It's trendy to pick Sony now days, so those people switched. Then of course they also grabbed a lot of people new to photography, since for many Sony is more more well known name than say Nikon, which outside of photography circles isn't that well known.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • Bear_DaleBear_Dale Posts: 4Member
    edited February 26
    PB_PM said:

    mhedges said:


    Interestingly this hasn't been an issue with Sony up till now...

    Then of course they also grabbed a lot of people new to photography, since for many Sony is more more well known name than say Nikon, which outside of photography circles isn't that well known.
    I think even the most vague person in regards to photography (even someone who's never owned a camera) would know of Nikon.
    Post edited by Bear_Dale on
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    I hope the Z8 is as great as the D850. A D850 equivalent all around camera with even more mp would be a hit.
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 1,573Member
    edited February 26
    I'm guessing $4000 for Z8. Ideally it would be priced the same as A7RIV but I doubt they will do that.

    Should be a great camera if all the rumors are true. Agree with @Searcy they really need it to come out strong.

    Nikon did a very poor job with the introduction of the Z6/Z7 and failed to control the narrative about those cameras at all. Hopefully they have learned their lesson and will do better next time.
    Post edited by mhedges on
  • tc88tc88 Posts: 477Member
    mhedges said:

    I'm guessing $4000 for Z8.

    I hope it's not $4k. That will be another blunder Nikon makes if it's the case. Most of the people waiting to buy Z8 are unlikely existing Z mount owners. To them, there is little barrier between Z mount and Sony FE. Unless Z8 blows out a7r4 which I highly doubt, (I expect parity at best), it will just push many of those people who's on the fence to the other side. By the time it releases which will be end of the year, a7r4 probably can be had for $2.5k during sales. A $4k Z8 will not be competitive and will just hasten people's decision now that they see what Nikon has in offer.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    First, it will have all the recent AF updates so that will avoid a big issue which occurred at the Z6/Z7 launch. Second, it will have two card slots so that avoids another big issue with the Z6/Z7. Third, great S lenses are now out (such as the 50mm f1.8 and the 58mm f0.95) so you can immediately use all the mp in the sensor. Fourth, the holy or hebrew trinity will be out so that also avoids one of the issues at he Z6/Z7 launch. Fifth, it will have a true vertical grip option which also avoids a criticism of the Z6/Z7. It is looking to me like Nikon will have everything "right" at this launch. What "new" could they add? Well, what if there was a software setting that reduced resolution to 24mp and increased the fps accordingly? Something like pixel binning? I would like that if the processor has the power to do it. This may make a Z8 even more versatile than a D850.
  • SearcySearcy Posts: 596Member
    If it has a bigger DSLR type body and will lock focus like an 850 I will think hard about buying one, even at $4000.
  • Bear_DaleBear_Dale Posts: 4Member
    I wonder what 60+MP will be like for hand holding?
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